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Pirates Vs. Ninjas: The Debate rages

Roose Hurro

Lovable Curmudgeon
Banned

Kosdu

Member
In all seriousness....

Ninja = spy.
They aren't combatants, if they ever were to see combat and not be able to escape they would be brutally murdered.
There is a reason they relied on superstition... bluffing.

Pirate = gangsta of the seas.
Not neccesarily trained, probably malnourished, but likely also somewhat tough and used to tough situations. Wouldn't say they would be good at combat, but better than ninjas? Yep.

Sorry to have taken this so seriously, just dislike over-glorification of japanese culture and history... just as I would any other, if they were treated the same.



Now who do you think would win, a Samurai, the spoiled warriors in a near bdsm relationship... Or knights, the spoiled medival warriors, probably also into bdsm?
 

Ozriel

Inglorious Bastard
In all seriousness....

Ninja = spy.
They aren't combatants, if they ever were to see combat and not be able to escape they would be brutally murdered.
There is a reason they relied on superstition... bluffing.

But Ninjas were also trained in hand-to-hand and martial combat in the event that they did have to. A lot of the superstition about romanticized Ninjas being able to use magic and spiritual magics were concocted by a lot of the peasants who were extremely superstitious and that belief spread like wildfire. That was before and during the Edo era.

They didn't rely on the rumors 100% it, but it helped make the ninja clans both admired and feared by enemy Daimyos and the Daimyos that hired them.

Pirate = gangsta of the seas.
Not neccesarily trained, probably malnourished, but likely also somewhat tough and used to tough situations. Wouldn't say they would be good at combat, but better than ninjas? Yep.

You did have pirates that weren't always pirates; either they were soldiers before and defected. You also had those who are also looking for work on the port islands and just went with it, captured slaves from enemy ships, etc.

On the seas and in a large group, perhaps. But unless the captain is a strict disciplinarian and apt at military tactics and TRAINED his/her crew to fight intelligently, they're pretty much your average band of bandits on the open waters.




Now who do you think would win, a Samurai, the spoiled warriors in a near bdsm relationship... Or knights, the spoiled medival warriors, probably also into bdsm?

It really depends.
 
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Roose Hurro

Lovable Curmudgeon
Banned
Then there is this.
 

Kosdu

Member
But Ninjas were also trained in hand-to-hand and martial combat in the event that they did have to. A lot of the superstition about romanticized Ninjas being able to use magic and spiritual magics were concocted by a lot of the peasants who were extremely superstitious and that belief spread like wildfire. That was after the Meiji era.

They didn't rely on the rumors 100% it, but it helped make the ninja clans both admired and feared by enemy Daimyos and the Daimyos that hired them.



You did have pirates that weren't always pirates; either they were soldiers before and defected. You also had those who are also looking for work on the port islands and just went with it, captured slaves from enemy ships, etc.

On the seas and in a large group, perhaps. But unless the captain is a strict disciplinarian and apt at military tactics and TRAINED his/her crew to fight intelligently, they're pretty much your average band of bandits on the open waters.

For the ninjas, what were they trained in for how long in what conditions?
As a martial artist, there is alot that needs to happen before being able to defend yourself.
That aside, they were probably mostly tought self defence and escape techniques.

Totally agree on the pirates.
 

ArmorcladCoyote

Red Wolf Inquisitor

The first video is is meant more for the crowds entertainment than to show off any actual fighting prowess. Neither were fighting to the best use of their weapons. (Understandably as neither wanted to injure the other.) Fighting Florentine, two swords, is best done very aggressively and the knight did not take any of the openings that the samurai created. I nearly yelled at my computer where the samurai kept leaving himself open. However the samurai also failed to take advantage of several openings the knight created.

From my experience in the SCA, in fights between people of similar skill levels, people that have western fighting styles tend to triumph over people with eastern styles. However, my neck of the woods is primarily people that use western styles so there may be some bias to the results.
 

Kosdu

Member
Were they tought in a sport like kendo or an art like iado?

It's easy for someone to assume they know what they are doing when they don't...

It's like unarmed:

some "arts" fuck around, don't do intelligent things..... Then you get something like silat where the first action they do results in their skull being smashed against the ground.

I'll stop taking this so seriously :p
 

Ayattar

Banned
Banned

A knight in the full plate fighting with two swords. Legit as fuck.

And about the longsword... It's too long. Average lenght was 100 cm not 115, 115 compared with average height in the medevial era makes it unwieldy for one-handed use.

Ehhh... Ok, I watched whole video. Thank you for making me waste 7 minutes of my life. Too much bullshit, sorry, I must quit.
 
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ArmorcladCoyote

Red Wolf Inquisitor
Were they tought in a sport like kendo or an art like iado?

It's easy for someone to assume they know what they are doing when they don't...

It's like unarmed:

some "arts" fuck around, don't do intelligent things..... Then you get something like silat where the first action they do results in their skull being smashed against the ground.

I'll stop taking this so seriously :p

It depends, some kingdoms it's very much a sport. In many fighters throw shots that if were done with a real sword would have been ineffective against a lightly armored opponent. In some of the more aggressive kingdoms like Ansteorra (where I am), Trimaris, or some others, it's much more of valid a martial art. Heavy armor gets dented in these kingdoms and I've even gotten a concussion through my helmet.

How my teacher does it, is after you learn basic footwork, you learn most of your stuff while actually fighting. If you do something stupid while sparring against him, he quickly points it out to you by taking advantage of it then asks if you figured out what you did wrong so you don't do it again.
 

Ozriel

Inglorious Bastard
The first video is is meant more for the crowds entertainment than to show off any actual fighting prowess. Neither were fighting to the best use of their weapons. (Understandably as neither wanted to injure the other.) Fighting Florentine, two swords, is best done very aggressively and the knight did not take any of the openings that the samurai created. I nearly yelled at my computer where the samurai kept leaving himself open. However the samurai also failed to take advantage of several openings the knight created.

From my experience in the SCA, in fights between people of similar skill levels, people that have western fighting styles tend to triumph over people with eastern styles. However, my neck of the woods is primarily people that use western styles so there may be some bias to the results.

That and eastern styles are not as popularized here as a teaching school in the US and the western medieval techniques. But it's still an interesting concept nonetheless. Yet, it also depends on the level of skill, plus the level observation (like in the video I linked).

For the ninjas, what were they trained in for how long in what conditions?
As a martial artist, there is alot that needs to happen before being able to defend yourself.
That aside, they were probably mostly tought self defence and escape techniques.

Totally agree on the pirates.

Since ninjas were mostly espionage, infiltration, and assassination, they were ambushes first and foremost. So the techniques they learned would favor taking advantage of your opponent before the enemy notices them.

Along with tools, such as poisons, it's meant to be quick and maybe clean.

And with self defense, probably in the event where the ninja is cornered by an opponent. I can't see them taking on more than 1-2 at a time without a group behind them.
 
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Ozriel

Inglorious Bastard
[FONT=arial, sans-serif]Actual ninjas were farm hands that nobility hired to assassinate. They were trained to sneak in, stab, and run and were regularly killed by servants wielding household objects. Pirates could sail, fight, tie so many knots a BDSM fetishist would cream themselves, sneak into enemy harbors and burn down entire towns, all while drunk and missing an arm. Your average ninja died of Cholera from drinking water their pets pissed in, provided they weren't killed by a stable boy armed with a horseshoe first.[/FONT]


Earlier between the early 12th and 13th century yes. They didn't gain any professional status the 14-15th century. At that period, they reached the same clan-like status as Samurai, and considered their skills more of a hereditary one. As soon as Tokugawa Shogunate unified Japan, they pretty much became myths.
 

Kosdu

Member
It depends, some kingdoms it's very much a sport. In many fighters throw shots that if were done with a real sword would have been ineffective against a lightly armored opponent. In some of the more aggressive kingdoms like Ansteorra (where I am), Trimaris, or some others, it's much more of valid a martial art. Heavy armor gets dented in these kingdoms and I've even gotten a concussion through my helmet.

How my teacher does it, is after you learn basic footwork, you learn most of your stuff while actually fighting. If you do something stupid while sparring against him, he quickly points it out to you by taking advantage of it then asks if you figured out what you did wrong so you don't do it again.

That's good that you learn it less as a sport.

The biggest mistake I see is actions that rely on pain to cripple an enemy, or do not cripple or kill or otherwise end the fight. Why do it if it doesn't end things?

@Ozriel

I doubt they would stay and combat the opponents until either dies, it's stupid. They'd do what they must so they could escape... Or they'd be brutally murdered, in my opinion.

As being trained to deal with groups... You don't stick around.
 
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Schwimmwagen

Well-Known Member
Seconding what Ozzy said about ninjas being assassins. Pirates, while not necessarily warfighters, are closer to warfighters than ninjas will ever be.

Besides, they only have to huddle up in the ship interior and wait for ninjas to come down corridoors and take turns at shooting them as they appear. Will a ninja win a 1-v-1? Possibly. Will a ninja win if he ambushes a pirate? Most likely. Will ninjas win in an actual combat situation? Nope.
 

Ieatcrackersandjumpcliffs

Fighter of the Nightman
I didn't know this was still a thing.
 
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