[POLL]Has the fandom changed in worse or in better over the years?

[O.D.D.]

Yeah, this. The crazy stuff didn't just magically appear, but once the internet became easily available and open to everyone, EVERYONE gets a platform. Now the denizens of the internet get to witness people like Kero the Wolf, who thinks animals are just asking for it. The only nice thing about it is that it provides a chance for all walks of life, and that platform also gets to double as a stand for a firing squad.

There is a strong element here of increased awareness via the rapid proliferation of information (and sometimes misinformation) through Internet channels but isolating that as a cause is difficult without some hefty analytics, which I really doubt anyone would bother with in the context of the furry fandom - maybe as a more generalized study on Internet culture in general (someone might have already broached the subject in that sense). What I've seen over the past decade or so looks to me like a pack of rabid dogs falling on each other and eviscerating everyone in their general vicinity using rationalizations that sound suspiciously post-hoc.

 

[FlooferWoofer]

Oops, I misunderstood the question but my answers still better. There was a lot more blissful ignorance in the name of unfettered acceptance back then. Now, furs are much more willing to call out the nastiest elements of the fandom when they try to hide among us because you’re anonymous in a suit.

A certain infamous twice convicted someone with a growlithe fursona is still allowed at most cons and was even on convention committees and GoH at a few AFTER the fact but many furries absolutely lambasted those cons on Twitter. Those are call outs I can get behind and it’s a positive thing people are saying something about that.

Before people would bury their heads in the sand because he’s an old fur, but new furries don’t have that history or care. Anyway, we’re a mixed bag and there will always be creeps because of the anonymity attached to wearing a fullsuit, but it’s getting better.

I still love the fandom because hey, sometimes you need to sift through mud to find the diamonds in the rough. Sorry for the long post.

 

[O.D.D.]

That particular bad person was so heavily entrenched within the fandom and the con scene that I suspect the reason he was able to stick around as long as he did was because he had serious kompromat on other personalities in the fandom. He is a very manipulative person, it kind of comes with being a predator in the first place, and it would be a logical inference that he would endeavor to establish a "informational M.A.D." policy of sorts in order to effectively blackmail/extort other people into allowing him into spaces. For every one of him I've seen half a dozen other people with at times questionable tastes/interests be chased about via social media dogpiles, and occasionally one of them does turn out to be an actual dirtbag.

The fandom has no shortage of dirtbags, to be sure - it's large enough and like I said, the doors were flung WIDE OPEN. The fact that the current zeitgeist in the fandom looks more like a religious inquisition than an attempt at cleaning up concerns me.

 

[KimberVaile]

@KimberVaile Well, (it could be argued) that people do make mistakes sometimes, also..... and that - sometimes - people do deserve a second chance, whenever there's still some chance of redeeming qualities to be found and realized, within certain individuals.

And thus - shaking one's middle finger in the air and saying - (rather judgementally so, one could argue) that someone "isn't worthy of breathing the air on the earth", (so to speak) - given their past mistakes, can be seen as just *a bit* too harsh, by some of us.

There are indeed so-called "dangers" out there - in the community, (many believe)..... and there are also - those out there, that made simple mistakes in their lives and deserve a chance to amend their ways.

Just sayin'. ☺

You do you. Though, I'm not interested in being in the camp of keeping people like Kero and Growly in the fandom. The former is responsible for animal abuse, the latter has a record relating to inappropriate conduct with minors. Records like that bring real safety concerns. There are plenty others out there like them too, but nothing is ever done about these furries who could be a real harm to minors or to other animals. Are furries supposed to trust they simply won't offend again? Things like that wouldn't fly in any other fandom, people would rightfully worry about their conduct.

Yet, every time somebody speaks up about these dangers, there's a civil war in twitter instead of a logical, unanimous consensus that these people do not belong.
The whole second chances thing might apply if the crime were something like petty theft, and only if they showed true reform. Though, sexual abuse of minors or of an animal is pretty extreme and giving people like a second chance usually ends in them abusing again anyways. Is it fair to the people around them in the con even, to just let them in? That would put some of the people around them at risk, all predicated on their word and nothing more. It's needlessly dangerous, and I think this community desperately needs to have some basic standards.

As to what is or isn't dangerous for the community depends, yes. I'd like to think barring animals abusers and pedophiles is a pretty easy set of basic standards to adopt for the community. So yes, I find it revolting that so many furries on Twitter don't see an issue with these people. Then again, Twitter is the same place that the M.A.P movement started. So maybe the fandom isn't entirely to blame, just mostly.

 

[O.D.D.]

You do you. Though, I'm not interested in being in the camp of keeping people like Kero and Growly in the fandom. The former is responsible for animal abuse, the latter has a record relating to inappropriate conduct with minors. Records like that bring real safety concerns. There are plenty others out there like them too, but nothing is ever done about these furries who could be a real harm to minors or to other animals. Are furries supposed to trust they simply won't offend again? Things like that wouldn't fly in any other fandom, people would rightfully worry about their conduct.

Yet, every time somebody speaks up about these dangers, there's a civil war in twitter instead of a logical, unanimous consensus that these people do not belong.
The whole second chances thing might apply if the crime were something like petty theft, and only if they showed true reform. Though, sexual abuse of minors or of an animal is pretty extreme and giving people like a second chance usually ends in them abusing again anyways. Is it fair to the people around them in the con even, to just let them in? That would put some of the people around them at risk, all predicated on their word and nothing more. It's needlessly dangerous, and I think this community desperately needs to have some basic standards.

As to what is or isn't dangerous for the community depends, yes. I'd like to think barring animals abusers and pedophiles is a pretty easy set of basic standards to adopt for the community. So yes, I find it revolting that so many furries on Twitter don't see an issue with these people. Then again, Twitter is the same place that the M.A.P movement started. So maybe the fandom isn't entirely to blame, just mostly.

Sexual abusers (of any stripe but in the context of this post animal/child abusers) have probably the highest rates of recidivism of any sort of criminal. In the case of animal abuse of pretty much all sorts getting the authorities to take it seriously has been an uphill battle for decades, the feds are JUST NOW starting to actually take it seriously and a number of states in the USA still have massive gray zones in laws surrounding animals and abuse.

I don't think anybody but other sex pests wants more sex pests around, and that kind of leaves a question sort of dangling in the air regarding some of the more persistent menaces within the fandom and their connections. How that question gets answered is almost certainly not on Twitter, or FAF, or anywhere but a court of law really. Then there's issues with some members of the fandom having variably questionable tastes and preferences in the content they consume, and people immediately leaping to conclusions based on that and proceeding to bring various forms of harm to those individuals whether they warrant it or not. There's a ton of forms of "furry content" I find variably distasteful or even outright repulsive but barring a select few individuals who produce/consume that content I really don't know if any of them are actually people that should not, for lack of a better term, be allowed within the fandom.

 

[Kinguyakki]

@KimberVaile Well, (it could be argued) that people do make mistakes sometimes, also..... and that - sometimes - people do deserve a second chance, whenever there's still some chance of redeeming qualities to be found and realized, within certain individuals.

And thus - shaking one's middle finger in the air and saying - (rather judgementally so, one could argue) that someone "isn't worthy of breathing the air on the earth", (so to speak) - given their past mistakes, can be seen as just *a bit* too harsh, by some of us.

There are indeed so-called "dangers" out there - in the community, (many believe)..... and there are also - those out there, that made simple mistakes in their lives and deserve a chance to amend their ways.

Just sayin'. ☺

A person might "accidentally" run a red light or speed. A person might drink too much and make a fool of themselves, say some hurtful things.

A person does not "accidentally" have sex with animals or prey on minors. Especially when they have a history of doing it. They don't need defenders or supporters, especially not within the fandom.

 

[Tahr_Yrre]

@KimberVaile Well, (it could be argued) that people do make mistakes sometimes, also..... and that - sometimes - people do deserve a second chance, whenever there's still some chance of redeeming qualities to be found and realized, within certain individuals.

And thus - shaking one's middle finger in the air and saying - (rather judgementally so, one could argue) that someone "isn't worthy of breathing the air on the earth", (so to speak) - given their past mistakes, can be seen as just *a bit* too harsh, by some of us.

There are indeed so-called "dangers" out there - in the community, (many believe)..... and there are also - those out there, that made simple mistakes in their lives and deserve a chance to amend their ways.

Just sayin'. ☺

This has to be a troll or you are one of the reasons why I think the fandom is going down the sink.

 

[Firuthi Dragovic]

There are actually other statements I have wanted to say about the state of FAF in particular (especially chaining off of Attaman's "online spaces in general" statement), but I need a bit more time to phrase it right.

And I know better than to get into the aforementioned horror stories, I've gotten more than I've bargained for in the past trying to even ask about blatantly degenerate things attributed to furries.


I did want to address THIS while it was fresh:

This has to be a troll or you are one of the reasons why I think the fandom is going down the sink.

From my experience with Connor's statements in the past, he's been more of a "forced contrarian" type through and through.

Occasionally it gets good, but this is not one of those situations where it works.

 

[O.D.D.]

From my experience with Connor's statements in the past, he's been more of a "forced contrarian" type through and through.

Habitual contrarians are assholes. They're either in it to piss someone off or just tire everyone else out with their endless bullshit.

 

[Connor J. Coyote]

Well, hey...... *all of us* make mistakes in our lives; (that's largely my point, above).... and thus - *sometimes* a little "elbow room" is needed, and indeed - even required; when people make mistakes in their lives, and engage in past trangressions..... and then, (at a later time) - try to make amends for their ways.

Now, mind you: I'm largely speaking in general terms; and not about specific people or specific instances.

As there is an old saying, that goes: "those in glass houses, shouldn't throw stones".... and, (let's be honest here): just about everyone in their lives, has made some sort of major mistakes in their lives, and have done some major blunders (in the past), right?

And thus - it could be argued that those in the community (that have a rather "judgemental" attitude, it could be seen as) - shouldn't be hurling one's "judgemental stones" towards someone else - from the front porches of the glass houses - that we all live in..... right?

But.... in more serious cases, however - (such as those that enage in so-called "predatory behavior") - treatment, therapy, and eventually.... (hopefully): rehabilitation, is in the cards; where: the trangressor has not only paid his or her time, but also... is (hopefully) being reformed via these therapeutic interventions, which in turn: changes their hurtful behavior, allows their victim(s) to heal, and (eventually) better serves us all, in society, (in the long run)..... given that a former offender will now (hopefully) be contributing member to our society, once again.

And in those cases (especially) - sometimes giving people a second chance - is better for us all - than: waving one's middle finger in the air (so to speak) and saying he/she must now immediately "walk the plank"...... which, (as I posted above) - could be seen as a bit too harsh.

You do you.

Eh.... I think I already do that.... but thanks for the tip. ☺

Habitual contrarians are assholes.

And, let's be honest here, also... are sometimes needed, when ever a convo goes too far in one direction.

 

[KimberVaile]

 

[Yakamaru]

...

Thought I'd be able to stay away from this dumpster fire, but nope. The hell kind of drugs are people on?

 

[Kinguyakki]

I'

Well, hey...... *all of us* make mistakes in our lives; (that's largely my point, above).... and thus - *sometimes* a little "elbow room" is needed, and indeed - even required; when people make mistakes in their lives, and engage in past trangressions..... and then, (at a later time) - try to make amends for their ways.

Now, mind you: I'm largely speaking in general terms; and not about specific people or specific instances.

As there is an old saying, that goes: "those in glass houses, shouldn't throw stones".... and, (let's be honest here): just about everyone in their lives, has made some sort of major mistakes in their lives, and have done some major blunders (in the past), right?

And thus - it could be argued that those in the community (that have a rather "judgemental" attitude, it could be seen as) - shouldn't be hurling one's "judgemental stones" towards someone else - from the front porches of the glass houses - that we all live in..... right?

But.... in more serious cases, however - (such as those that enage in so-called "predatory behavior") - treatment, therapy, and eventually.... (hopefully): rehabilitation, is in the cards; where: the trangressor has not only paid his or her time, but also... is (hopefully) being reformed via these therapeutic interventions, which in turn: changes their hurtful behavior, allows their victim(s) to heal, and (eventually) better serves us all, in society, (in the long run)..... given that a former offender will now (hopefully) be contributing member to our society, once again.

And in those cases (especially) - sometimes giving people a second chance - is better for us all - than: waving one's middle finger in the air (so to speak) and saying he/she must now immediately "walk the plank"...... which, (as I posted above) - could be seen as a bit too harsh.

Eh.... I think I already do that.... but thanks for the tip. ☺

And, let's be honest here, also... are sometimes needed, when ever a convo goes too far in one direction.

I've personally never tried to seduce or molest kids, and I don't have sex with animals.

I've never stalked anyone, never raped anyone, and have no desire or inclinations to do so.

These aren't things that happen by "accident." They're not just little "oops" mistakes a person makes.

They don't just have an "off day" and decide to molest a dog or manipulate a minor into doing sexual acts and then laugh it off like it was a weird phase and get on with life.

I am not obligated to forgive people who have done those things, because whether or not they say they are "rehabilitated" it doesn't change that they've victimized someone or something else for their own gratification.

If you're okay with hanging out with people who participate in those things, you go right ahead.

You can help them "heal" and "change." It's not really your place to tell the whole community that we should accept and welcome those who engage in that behavior.

 

[TyraWadman]

...

Thought I'd be able to stay away from this dumpster fire, but nope. The hell kind of drugs are people on?
View attachment 119027

Youre just looking for more opportunities to flaunt your collection of reaction stickers. UuU

 

[KimberVaile]

Why don't we complete the trifecta of degeneracy and throw incest in too? You know, just to add a cherry on the shit sundae here, it's not like I expect the fandom to be above it at this point.

 

[O.D.D.]

thread: *mostly civil discussion*
Connor: "needs more fire"
thread now:

 

[MaelstromEyre]

I don't know if the community is better or worse. A little of each in different areas, I guess.

Seeing anyone defend sex criminals of any kind within the fandom is a bit unnerving, especially to those who are survivors of that kind of crime.

Sometimes pushing to accept or welcome a few individuals does more to push away many more others. I've been in online groups (furry) where one individual was extremely toxic and manipulative. He would break known rules and then try to argue with admins that the rule was "stupid," and if he didn't get the response he wanted from one admin, he'd just find another one to take his side. When no one took his side, he'd have an absolute meltdown about not getting his way. He was temporarily suspended from participating in the group, kind of a final warning, a final opportunity for him. When he was allowed back in, he wasn't back two weeks before starting drama all over again, and he was finally banned.

The problem is, his behavior and the ongoing attempts to be patient with him ended up driving away a lot of good participants who just got sick of his tantrums. They were there to just have fun, but it seemed like at least once a week he was making himself the dramatic victim.

 

[Rimna]

Why don't we complete the trifecta of degeneracy and throw incest in too? You know, just to add a cherry on the shit sundae here, it's not like I expect the fandom to be above it at this point.

Whoa there, getting a bit sensitive are we? Haven't you ever like... Accidentally done the incest sometimes?

I'm being sarcastic of course. Child abuse and animal abuse aren't accidents or mistakes. One does not accidentally manipulate a minor or perform bestiality.

At least it doesn't take much for pedo and zoo defenders to crawl out of the woodwork.

 

[Ziggy Schlacht]

Getting this back on topic....

So, a few months ago there was a thread that was "how has the furry fandom changed" or something similar. Basically the same question, but without the qualifier of "better, same, worse, IDK." The responses were far more positive. There was also a thread asking whether the DA community or the FA community was "friendlier" - which, ignoring the bias, also had a lot of positive responses.

Here, I'm reading lots of folks complaining that it's worse because of twitter and ferzu... And that's it? Like the rest of the arguments seem to be the result of the commenter maturing - "we had so much porn and it was awesome" to now "all the porn is boring and lacks the spirit it once did." Sure you didn't get bored? As far as twitter and ferzu, you can just stay off them. You know, just like sensible people avoid FChan (or whatever the furry chan was) way back.

But, instead of shitting on y'all for being upset that modern twitter culture is toxic, fickle and dumb, I'm instead going to take you back to the halcyon years of 10-15 years ago, where internet furry culture was supposedly better. Here's how most forums worked:

1. Say something dumb? BANNED
2. Say something innocent, but doesn't match the invisible norms of a forum? BANNED
3. Contradict a mod? BANNED
4. Prove a mod's friend wrong? BANNED
5. Draw the ire of the wrong person? BANNED AND DOXXED
6. Say something edgy? Either BANNED or lauded, depending on if it was funny
7. Complain about something edgy? BANNED and called a pussy
8. It's Tuesday and your avatar is blue? BANNED

And people took great pleasure in screwing over newbies who didn't know the rules - it was hazing, but that was okay. That thread on how the furry fandom changed, it was page after page saying how much better it is now - FA forums used to be just like this. Back then, since this thread is a lot of whining, it would have gotten everyone banned for the sin of commenting on it. Granted, back then this attempt at a discussion would have been derailed intentionally by post 3 with dumpster fire pictures, meme-speak and nothing constructive. We were all younger and just accepted that's how it was, but really, internet culture has always been super toxic and people have been being cancelled for stupid shit forever. In other words - the worst part of twitter culture is nothing new, just different criteria. You know, toxic, fickle and dumb.

----------------

To answer the OP - I think it's the same, we just care more about certain behavior, and traded one issue for another. It's key to remember that as soon as you start caring about something, you'll see more of it. That doesn't mean there is more of it, just that you care.

Nazi furs are gone (weirdest subgroup ever, given how many just thought the uniforms were cool and had no comprehension of the context). Burned fur debacle is over. Furries are generally more accepted. Forums are less of a cesspool. Not to mention you can find furry-related stuff so much more easily without it being bombarded by trolls. This is balanced off by some of the legitimate issues brought on by others.

 

[Yakamaru]

Youre just looking for more opportunities to flaunt your collection of reaction stickers. UuU

.... No? XD

I've had this sticker for a while and posted it several times. Thought it was an appropriate sticker for this thread tho.

 

[O.D.D.]

But, instead of shitting on y'all for being upset that modern twitter culture is toxic, fickle and dumb, I'm instead going to take you back to the halcyon years of 10-15 years ago, where internet furry culture was supposedly better. Here's how most forums worked:

1. Say something dumb? BANNED
2. Say something innocent, but doesn't match the invisible norms of a forum? BANNED
3. Contradict a mod? BANNED
4. Prove a mod's friend wrong? BANNED
5. Draw the ire of the wrong person? BANNED AND DOXXED
6. Say something edgy? Either BANNED or lauded, depending on if it was funny
7. Complain about something edgy? BANNED and called a pussy
8. It's Tuesday and your avatar is blue? BANNED

That is how ALL internet venues currently work barring a select, tiny handful, the Internet is not the Wild West it was from 1995-2000something (and it wasn't quite as wild as people seem to remember unless you went into the REALLY dark corners) and it never, ever will be again. Whether that's a good thing or not is going to depend on your personal tastes.

Forums are less of a cesspool.

Citation needed. Some of the nastier people fled to places like Twitter, where discourse goes to die a fiery death. Forums are now passe and more niche but as a result any remaining nasties have an inordinately magnified presence.

 

[Balskarr]

Well, hey...... *all of us* make mistakes in our lives; (that's largely my point, above).... and thus - *sometimes* a little "elbow room" is needed, and indeed - even required; when people make mistakes in their lives, and engage in past trangressions..... and then, (at a later time) - try to make amends for their ways.

Now, mind you: I'm largely speaking in general terms; and not about specific people or specific instances.

As there is an old saying, that goes: "those in glass houses, shouldn't throw stones".... and, (let's be honest here): just about everyone in their lives, has made some sort of major mistakes in their lives, and have done some major blunders (in the past), right?

And thus - it could be argued that those in the community (that have a rather "judgemental" attitude, it could be seen as) - shouldn't be hurling one's "judgemental stones" towards someone else - from the front porches of the glass houses - that we all live in..... right?

But.... in more serious cases, however - (such as those that enage in so-called "predatory behavior") - treatment, therapy, and eventually.... (hopefully): rehabilitation, is in the cards; where: the trangressor has not only paid his or her time, but also... is (hopefully) being reformed via these therapeutic interventions, which in turn: changes their hurtful behavior, allows their victim(s) to heal, and (eventually) better serves us all, in society, (in the long run)..... given that a former offender will now (hopefully) be contributing member to our society, once again.

And in those cases (especially) - sometimes giving people a second chance - is better for us all - than: waving one's middle finger in the air (so to speak) and saying he/she must now immediately "walk the plank"...... which, (as I posted above) - could be seen as a bit too harsh.

Eh.... I think I already do that.... but thanks for the tip. ☺

And, let's be honest here, also... are sometimes needed, when ever a convo goes too far in one direction.

If that last statement is truly how you feel then I think you should know you've gone too far in one direction.

 

[Ziggy Schlacht]

That is how ALL internet venues currently work barring a select, tiny handful, the Internet is not the Wild West it was from 1995-2000something (and it wasn't quite as wild as people seem to remember unless you went into the REALLY dark corners) and it never, ever will be again. Whether that's a good thing or not is going to depend on your personal tastes.

The folks here who get banned tend to deserve it a lot more than used to be the norm. There's no "*User does stupid shit in asterisks* - User is banned" type moderating, nor stuff like "It's Tuesday, banned." You're also at much less risk to get doxxed because you seem like an easy mark*. The change, I might add, was very gradual, but I don't think you'd willingly participate in a forum like this from a decade ago now. One thing to remember is also if one was good at rolling with the crowd, then one probably very much enjoyed their time and doesn't necessarily remember it was bad.

Citation needed. Some of the nastier people fled to places like Twitter, where discourse goes to die a fiery death. Forums are now passe and more niche but as a result any remaining nasties have an inordinately magnified presence.

IMGUR isn't much better - short messages and rapid chatter is terrible for discourse. But this argument would imply to me things have actually gotten better. If the true shitheads are on twitter, that means they're quarantined in something that, well, I don't need to deal with if I want to talk furry. And while there are still some (though the ones I'm thinking of are all presently banned), I would hardly call them amplified in a negative way. When it's one really bad voice in sea of good ones, versus a number of bad voices in pool of good ones, it's a lot easier to identify and ignore the bad.

That being said, my overall assessment was "it's the same, we just changed problems." You haven't said anything to contradict that.

*Doxxed because the internet hate machine has decided your views are wrong however...

 

[O.D.D.]

The folks here who get banned tend to deserve it a lot more than used to be the norm.

This forum is not a good benchmark for the norm IMO

There's no "*User does stupid shit in asterisks* - User is banned" type moderating, nor stuff like "It's Tuesday, banned."

That's something I see on the regular in a lot of other places (including Reddit really, but Reddit sucks)

You're also at much less risk to get doxxed because you seem like an easy mark*.

*Doxxed because the internet hate machine has decided your views are wrong however...

Doxing is all the rage now and it's just increased because of that second caveat, the first qualifier has not decreased/disappeared AT ALL - it happens to be dwarfed by the second and in the end it's all post-hoc justification to be an utter shitheel to someone else because they can/because it makes them feel powerful/because they hate someone so much they decide to become an "internet terrorist" and they can't resist dragging cyberspace shit into meatspace what with being a maladjusted psychopath

IMGUR isn't much better - short messages and rapid chatter is terrible for discourse. But this argument would imply to me things have actually gotten better. If the true shitheads are on twitter, that means they're quarantined in something that, well, I don't need to deal with if I want to talk furry. And while there are still some (though the ones I'm thinking of are all presently banned), I would hardly call them amplified in a negative way. When it's one really bad voice in sea of good ones, versus a number of bad voices in pool of good ones, it's a lot easier to identify and ignore the bad.

They're not quarantined, they're generally free to wander about to other hunting grounds barring the few smaller venues that just won't put up with them. They're on Twitter because it's PERFECT for them and it enables their bad behavior like nothing else

There isn't a "sea of good ones", there are small puddles of people scattered about who are mostly not complete jackwagons and in those small puddles float a few turds - whether the staff running that venue deal with them appropriately or not is a complete crapshoot and sometimes the staff are WORSE

 

[MaelstromEyre]

Doxing is all the rage now and it's just increased because of that second caveat, the first qualifier has not decreased/disappeared AT ALL - it happens to be dwarfed by the second and in the end it's all post-hoc justification to be an utter shitheel to someone else because they can/because it makes them feel powerful/because you hate someone so much they decide to become an "internet terrorist" and they can't resist dragging cyberspace shit into meatspace what with being a maladjusted psychopath

Totally off the topic but this is the first time I've heard "meatspace" used to describe real-life world stuff and I'm dying. Thank you for that.