Le Chat Nécro
most thugged-out dope hoe
@Yakamaru and @WolfyAmbassador
So I can totally understand and respect your personal choices about your own love lives. If poly isn't for you, that's great! You do you!
But you seem to be conflating two separate issues. You hear someone say something about legalizing poly marriages and you respond by talking about social norms, forced standards, and reverence. Which is a fine way to feel, I guess (though I don't super appreciate the tone of "you're doomed to fail cause you're dynamics are inherently bad",just sayin'), but that's not the issue. Legalizing something does not make it "the norm" or "revered". Like, being Hindi is legalized under US law, but Hindi isn't "the norm" since there are definitely more Christians, and it's not really revered either. No one is being pushed to convert or having it shoved in their faces just cause it's legal. Same with gay marriage. Making it legal just made it, well, legal. It's not saying that gay marriage is for everyone, or forcing people to even like it (clearly). It's just making it legally possible to do if you want to.
I agree with many posts here that legally there's just too much shit that would need sorting before poly marriage could be a thing. Like, our tax code is already fucked. Adding in plural marriages is going to be an absolute nightmare. But it's a nice thought.
So I can totally understand and respect your personal choices about your own love lives. If poly isn't for you, that's great! You do you!
But you seem to be conflating two separate issues. You hear someone say something about legalizing poly marriages and you respond by talking about social norms, forced standards, and reverence. Which is a fine way to feel, I guess (though I don't super appreciate the tone of "you're doomed to fail cause you're dynamics are inherently bad",just sayin'), but that's not the issue. Legalizing something does not make it "the norm" or "revered". Like, being Hindi is legalized under US law, but Hindi isn't "the norm" since there are definitely more Christians, and it's not really revered either. No one is being pushed to convert or having it shoved in their faces just cause it's legal. Same with gay marriage. Making it legal just made it, well, legal. It's not saying that gay marriage is for everyone, or forcing people to even like it (clearly). It's just making it legally possible to do if you want to.
I agree with many posts here that legally there's just too much shit that would need sorting before poly marriage could be a thing. Like, our tax code is already fucked. Adding in plural marriages is going to be an absolute nightmare. But it's a nice thought.
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Piratefoxbox
New Member
i dont know man, like I think it shouldn't be illegal to be in a relationship with many partners at once weather if its 1 woman and many males/1 male many women/1 gender+others of any gender/etc'
however with marriage im not 100% how you would implement it.
there are certain things that you need to take into consideration of why it is still ilegal and why it probably will remain that way for a long time and its mainly about divorces.
divorce is usually the breaking of a marriage but with polygamy it might not necessarily be that which could create some issues.
until these issues can be solved in a realistic way (not in an ideological way whee everyone just agree for the most logical conclusion) than we cant really say this can be implemented into law
lets say you have a child in this relationship when you are in a 1 woman 3 men relationship
and the father of that child now wants to divorce.
does he pay child support? does she? do the other non biological fathers do? how does custody goes? does the mother and father split it? or the mother, father and the 2 non biological fathers?
there are a lot of questions regarding this which we havent really tackled in our society that we need to in order to move on with it.
the other issue comes from a more power dynamic type relationship.
do we really want to legalize something that would encourage people who wanted to be poly to do so?
this could lead down a road of social pressure from many partners for one person to remain in the relationship even if its bad for them, theres an argument which can be made that the same applies for the norm relationships, however we cant really avoid these and we already have a lot of laws in place to help mitigate these types of relationship as much as possible however with a poly relationship these laws are kind of on shaky grounds.
.
so in conclusion poly legalized? yea, I think if we dont encourage any ilegal or power dynamics types of relationships down this road than yea.
should it be institutionalized as in marriage? not at the moment, not until we as a society start to really speak about this to tackle the important issues we will have to deal with this type of relationship
however with marriage im not 100% how you would implement it.
there are certain things that you need to take into consideration of why it is still ilegal and why it probably will remain that way for a long time and its mainly about divorces.
divorce is usually the breaking of a marriage but with polygamy it might not necessarily be that which could create some issues.
until these issues can be solved in a realistic way (not in an ideological way whee everyone just agree for the most logical conclusion) than we cant really say this can be implemented into law
lets say you have a child in this relationship when you are in a 1 woman 3 men relationship
and the father of that child now wants to divorce.
does he pay child support? does she? do the other non biological fathers do? how does custody goes? does the mother and father split it? or the mother, father and the 2 non biological fathers?
there are a lot of questions regarding this which we havent really tackled in our society that we need to in order to move on with it.
the other issue comes from a more power dynamic type relationship.
do we really want to legalize something that would encourage people who wanted to be poly to do so?
this could lead down a road of social pressure from many partners for one person to remain in the relationship even if its bad for them, theres an argument which can be made that the same applies for the norm relationships, however we cant really avoid these and we already have a lot of laws in place to help mitigate these types of relationship as much as possible however with a poly relationship these laws are kind of on shaky grounds.
.
so in conclusion poly legalized? yea, I think if we dont encourage any ilegal or power dynamics types of relationships down this road than yea.
should it be institutionalized as in marriage? not at the moment, not until we as a society start to really speak about this to tackle the important issues we will have to deal with this type of relationship
As long as it doesn't harken back to that sexist shit I'm fine with polygamy tbh.
Folhester
Smutty Scribbler
Ok so english isn't my first language so explaining my point of view's gonna be painful haha
But guys, marriage wasn't created for love.
Sure you can give it a meaning of eternal commitment, but it's first meant as a legal status that allows you to share property and administrative shit just so you can ensure a proper education for your future kids, that are gonna grow up, replace you and work to support the system.
So far, marriage has been thought only for monogamous relationships, for a simple reason: you only need 2 people to make kids. So involving more than 2 people in a marriage would just cause a useless legal and administrative tantrum, being about medical insurance, state financial helps, parental rights, patrimony and so on.
If polygamy was recognized as a legal status, society would need to rethink their whole property and legacy system. I'm not saying it would be good or bad, I'm just saying our society went for the easier way to ensure and control the population renewal, and changing that system would take way more years than reasonable (also more than a presidential term, that's also a problem to ensure the complete transformation of the system). And our society isn't gonna go through this administrative mess for the sheer notion of love.
You guys talked about polygyny in Arabic and Mormon states. Well, establishing a hierarchy where the man is the head of family who's gonna earn money to take care of his harem, is a way to limit this mess and make it more simple to legally handle. But even if steady, it doesn't keep it from being a misogynistic model that comes with an objectification and infantilization of women (if the man is always the one with more rights of course there'll be less paperwork to handle...).
So yeah, long story short, the feeling of love and the legal status that is marriage are two separate things. I agree though that love comes in multiple forms: some people only want one partner and would be bothered to share them, others consider they can love and/or have sex with multiple partners with everyone knowing and be ok with it... Well, as long as everyone is aware of the nature of the relationship and consenting, hell, it's their own business to mind.
But guys, marriage wasn't created for love.
Sure you can give it a meaning of eternal commitment, but it's first meant as a legal status that allows you to share property and administrative shit just so you can ensure a proper education for your future kids, that are gonna grow up, replace you and work to support the system.
So far, marriage has been thought only for monogamous relationships, for a simple reason: you only need 2 people to make kids. So involving more than 2 people in a marriage would just cause a useless legal and administrative tantrum, being about medical insurance, state financial helps, parental rights, patrimony and so on.
If polygamy was recognized as a legal status, society would need to rethink their whole property and legacy system. I'm not saying it would be good or bad, I'm just saying our society went for the easier way to ensure and control the population renewal, and changing that system would take way more years than reasonable (also more than a presidential term, that's also a problem to ensure the complete transformation of the system). And our society isn't gonna go through this administrative mess for the sheer notion of love.
You guys talked about polygyny in Arabic and Mormon states. Well, establishing a hierarchy where the man is the head of family who's gonna earn money to take care of his harem, is a way to limit this mess and make it more simple to legally handle. But even if steady, it doesn't keep it from being a misogynistic model that comes with an objectification and infantilization of women (if the man is always the one with more rights of course there'll be less paperwork to handle...).
So yeah, long story short, the feeling of love and the legal status that is marriage are two separate things. I agree though that love comes in multiple forms: some people only want one partner and would be bothered to share them, others consider they can love and/or have sex with multiple partners with everyone knowing and be ok with it... Well, as long as everyone is aware of the nature of the relationship and consenting, hell, it's their own business to mind.
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BahgDaddy
Guest
Do you have any evidence for this, or have you just envisioned what you think would happen if it was you who was involved? In other words, did you pull this out of your ass?
B
BahgDaddy
Guest
So I think what you're saying is that marriage, as a legal system, is messed up and would be extremely hard to change. That's a fair point and I hadn't even thought of that. I often forget tha the government has a bizarre interest in people's love affairs.
Outside of marriage though, it doesn't look like anyone has a problem with multiple people loving each other.
Folhester
Smutty Scribbler
Marriage is not messed up
I'm just saying marriage is a legal status that doesn't take account of love, in the eyes of the state it's just about patrimony and child support. Government don't care about your love affairs, they care about the steadiness of their financial system and would care about how costly and complex legalizing polygamy would be, with little to no benefit to most people.On another note, I think you shouldn't be uselessly rude to WolfyAmbassador. I don't agree with their opinion, but we can try to understand others' points of view and ask about them without being unpleasant.
Folhester
Smutty Scribbler
@Le Chat Nécro explained it well, but yeah, even though polyamory's not your thing (and that's fine, it's not my thing either), careful with the way you express your judgement of others' relationships
It can be real insulting for polygamous people to see their way of handling (healthy) relationships qualified as a fetish, lack of respect and other clichés. Polyamory isn't your average flick trope with a gal flying from one bed to another. Better try to inform yourself on this relationship type than apply your bias to what you don't really know ^^
Le Chat Nécro
most thugged-out dope hoe
Really, all of the "bad" things he mentioned like jealousy, favoritism, lack of respect, fetishization... those can all happen in monogamous relationships too. It's not just a poly thing. And I'd posit that at least in poly, we're forced to deal with those upfront and honestly right off the bat. There's no getting around it, and that really helps with all of those problems. Every relationship- be it monogamous, poly, gay, straight, whatever- has the potential for problems. And not all relationships are for everyone. But at the very least I know that I am deeply happy with my two guys at home who love me dearly. And I love them. We make it work, and that's all that matters to me.@Le Chat Nécro explained it well, but yeah, even though polyamory's not your thing (and that's fine, it's not my thing either), careful with the way you express your judgement of others' relationships
It can be real insulting for polygamous people to see their way of handling (healthy) relationships qualified as a fetish, lack of respect and other clichés. Polyamory isn't your average flick trope with a gal flying from one bed to another. Better try to inform yourself on this relationship type than apply your bias to what you don't really know ^^
Marriage is hard, and legalizing it would be really hard. Part of it is really simple. Just have to make it so that people can get multiple marriage licences. But there's a lot more that marriage effects in our system. Things get complicated really fast. And not all poly looks the same. Some are hierarchical like mine, some aren't. Some involve separation of relationships (my boyfriends aren't each other's boyfriend), some involve everyone dating everyone. The more variations we include, the more complicated things get. How do we deal with secondaries?Tertiaries? Triads? Metamores?
For now I think it's best that we just stick to what we have and just try to not be dicks to people dating multiple people
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BahgDaddy
Guest
Not to the best of my knowledge.
TrishaCat
The Cat in the FAF
Please do not bully Mormons. They're really not nearly as bad as you're saying. They're just a weird branch of Protestantism that has a second holy book.
I did not know that. Interesting and unfortunate then. If it's allowed with a man and multiple women, the other should also be allowed
Mikazuki Marazhu
I hate you all
I thought the left is against sexism.
Polygamy is pretty sexist to me :V
Polygamy is pretty sexist to me :V
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BahgDaddy
Guest
I think @Simo is maybe thinking of the "reformed Mormon" church, which is in reality the UNreformed Mormon church and is in fact quite creepy.
Polygamy - multiple spouses.
Polygyny - man with multiple wives
Polyandry - woman with multiple husbands (I think it's common in places like Tibet, but don't quote me on that)
Multiple everything - furfag pile
Yakamaru
Bara mig och lite bensin
Oh, I am not against polygamy in and of itself, nor against it becoming legal, love. In fact, I support it becoming legal.
I am against the mentality people have that practically goes "I like this. I should try and convince other people of doing/liking this as well!". I am of the mindset of "You do you" and "keep your own shit to yourself". I won't tread on someone's island unless I am invited over. I merely expect the same courtesy in return.
This isn't about forcing someone, though it is about people going around trying to convince others that their way of life is the best way to go about things. Trying to convince that their standard of social norms is the correct one.
This form of relationship isn't for everyone. Some make it work, but a lot of people won't.
Le Chat Nécro
most thugged-out dope hoe
Hey. So that's great. I'm happy that you're okay with poly. And I totes agree (and even said before) that poly isn't for everyone and that no one relationship is the best way to go about things.
But you are talking about something that literally no one else in this thread is. The topic is legalizing poly marriage. The responses have been about how that would work legally and bureaucratically, and overall support for poly in general if that's what people want to do. But what hadn't come up, until you brought it up, was anyone trying to "convince other people of doing it" or "convincing other that their way of life is the best". You created an issue that was never here to begin with. Or at the very least you brought up an issue that no one was talking about as though that was what we were talking about or that the two are in any way the same. (legality =/= "convincing")
And to be perfectly blunt and personal for a second, the way you ended your first post didn't read as very supportive to me.
This reads to me as "If you want to make poor life choices, that's on you. Don't come crying to me when you inevitably fail." Which is kind of dickish. Particularly when there wasn't really any reason to say that aside from taking a jab at people, like me, who are in these kinds of relationships. It might not have been your intent, but can you at least see how this can come off? This has nothing to do with the topic. It adds nothing to the discussion. And it's hurtful to think that someone who doesn't even know me thinks I'm making a shitty decision by loving two guys at the same time.
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I think @Le Chat Nécro raised several fine points about poly that I believe she phrased better than I could, but I would like to reiterate a few points and make a few more. For the sake of transparency, I am for poly marriage though I am not in a poly relationship. I feel this way because many people often ask themselves who the right person is for them. In certain cases, the answer is more than one person who is special to them. Why make that person or those people choose only one partner when clearly no one is hurt by them being happy together? I must admit I do not know as much as I could about poly relationships or marriage, but I know enough to say it does not hurt anyone or society at large.
Having said that, on another thread I discussed the value of respectfully addressing users, even if you disagree with them. I think that we would be well served to mindful of everyone's feelings before we say things that could be hurtful. Furthermore, those who seek to lead by example would do well to take note that people remember respect and they remember disrespect. Only one of those options brings respect.
Having said that, on another thread I discussed the value of respectfully addressing users, even if you disagree with them. I think that we would be well served to mindful of everyone's feelings before we say things that could be hurtful. Furthermore, those who seek to lead by example would do well to take note that people remember respect and they remember disrespect. Only one of those options brings respect.
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Nakita
Guest
Whatever people do behind closed doors is their business, as long as it's consensual and not with minors. But considering how so many people are paranoid with cheating in this day and age, it would certainly pose a challenge just trying to find people up for those kind of relationships. At least in most developed countries and communities.
However, also consider that poly relationships and marriages may actually be less susceptible to the temptation of cheating. Multiple people being to have everyone they love in a relationship or marriage could make that union stronger. All of the partners would have to agree, but if they did, there would be no conflict. Binary marriages can not claim the same thing necessarily.
Le Chat Nécro
most thugged-out dope hoe
Love finds a way.
It's true that jealously and paranoia can be problems in any relationship, and not everyone can get past those in order to make a poly relationship work. And that's okay!
But finding partners is definitely possible. Just gotta make sure you're clear and that everyone is on the same page.
If poly marriage was a thing, there would certainly be takers.
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Nakita
Guest
Love finds a way.
It's true that jealously and paranoia can be problems in any relationship, and not everyone can get past those in order to make a poly relationship work. And that's okay!
But finding partners is definitely possible. Just gotta make sure you're clear and that everyone is on the same page.
If poly marriage was a thing, there would certainly be takers.
As an ace, I like learning how different relationship factors work for different people. And I do believe that love can for sure be found under most circumstances =>
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Nakita
Guest
As stated by others, I also believe that if polygamy were to become legal, it would have to be applicable to anyone regardless of gender or orientation. So, women + multiple husbands, men + multiple husbands, women + multiple wives, etc. Just my thoughts.