AethWolf said:I know this is a horribly simplified way of saying it, but...
Why should the medium matter if the content is on topic for the site (anthropomorphic things) and the uploader either created it or has permission to upload it?
Wolfblade said:Can we please, please, pleasepleaseplease, PLEASE, avoid slippery-slope arguments?
Unless I am missing it, which I could be, it's late; poser is not currently banned in the AUP. There was talk of whether or not it should be. We're hearing some people who feel it doesn't belong, and obviously there are others who feel it does. This discussion will be MUCH more productive if people could please
A: remember we are hearing pros and cons for a POTENTIAL decision, not something we have actually enacted yet, and even regarding the rules we HAVE enacted, there is still always potential for change. Kindly refrain from villifying the site for something that hasn't even happened.
B: Please, if you do disagree with something we have actually done, and feel the need to criticize for that, try to keep it civil. And if at all possible, keep the criticism limited to what we HAVE done as opposed to remarks along the lines of "well, if you did that then you might as well ban this, and then you should just ban that, and then you've banned all artwork and don't let anybody post anything at all, way to go you jerks."
One of the BIGGEST difficulties with trying to improve this site is that ANY change is met with resistance from someone. It is VERY difficult to try and obtain user opinion and input BEFORE a change when even mentioning a MAYBE change in the future gets people angry and upset at us as if we had already enacted the change and every single slippery-slope potential change people believe will stem from it.
We want to make this place better. We need the help of you, the users. If people are going to insist that we are the bad guys no matter what, and anything we do short of making this site a completely open free imagehost (not gonna happen) gets us animosity and villification, it makes it INCREDIBLY difficult to be up front and honest with everyone with ideas we have for the future. We want to get peoples' opinions on changes we might want to make. But you all have to understand that when EVERY "hey we're thinking about...." gets angry holy hell rained down on us, it makes it less appealing to announce potential changes.
I believe Poser would fall under the realm of "character generator" given the ultimate nature of the application, and thus falls in line with a violation according to the AUP.
lothaekor said:Though I would hardly argue against preventing people from posting 50 different camera angles of the same model on the standard grey background.
Tensik said:He then says it's the first time it has been brought up, but that's a load as we had this discussion before in regard to Poser vs. SL and he made it clear that he thought DAZ and Poser users were a joke. Regardless, it's unfair for you to point fingers at people over a slippery slope when it was the administration who stated it to begin with for what many have pointed out is rather obviously a case of prejudice over one set of tool users, that by its implications could ultimately affect many people here by limiting how art is generated in MANY programs and by future quality controls in general based on schooling or staff opinion on the medium used, and his words have insulted many people who put hundreds of hours into their art here.
This is one of those times where you back off and let people say their piece, Wolfblade.
Kasarn said:As a guy with a camera, I don't really see the difference between still life or studio photography and Poser/DAZ3D. As far as I can see (never having used the programs), both are the arranging of preexisting things, adding lighting, composing the final shot and creating an image (or multiple images). Both can create crapfloods and both can create art.
The annoying part is that there's more crap and stuff that is just plain ordinary than there is good stuff and it's easy to get frustrated by it all.
Cheska said:Ok, how is any of this a remotely valid point?
If you must "Learn" to draw with Pencil and Paper, You can be called an artist when your skills pay off to some extent.
So, a person using Poser/Daz has instant insight into how to use these programs? Does it upload this knowledge into your brain? No.
Dragooneer even said he went to school... but he doesn't think its art.
If we decide to debate "What is Art?", then we have already begun a journey down a sloap. Make this simple, post a poll... The Moderators cannot decide on their own what is art and what is not... heck, a Poll is a bad idea, because it is the "Person" not that Masses that decides for himself.
At the risk of annoying someone, I do not think Scat picture are art.
This is my opinion and is a Truth for "Me" and me alone, BillWoodchuck might live for each and every Scat pic he can find.
What do I say to this? Go Bill, Go! Because he has a right to his choice, and I have a moral obligation to allow him his choice, even when I do not agree with it.
This can be turnd around and used against me as well, Do I support everyones choice? No.. and again, I will not hinder them, nor will I encourage them either. But I will not declare what is art, and what is not.
Yes, this is true... I did announce it, and I've always felt that way. Why a "chip? I'm a 3D artist/animator. I build my 3D models from the ground up, bone the mesh, map the UV, create and design my textures. I'm degreed in the digital animation field and have done so professionally for a career in various applications and shows. Thus, to me, comparing what somebody does in Poser -vs- what I can do...Ranard Lightningfall said:True, but we belive the issue, and why everyone is so angry, is why is this even being considered? And it does not help that the front man has obvious chip on his shoulder for aid program. He blatently anounce it.
The debate is not whether or not Poser is a good or bad application -- I've had to "create" and design in it with previous jobs. But having used Poser in previous jobs, I know from personal experience that you can not, in fact, create with it, only modify and tweak.redfoxnudetoons said:Hell. This is crap. I'm a professional Graphic Designer. And I for one have to say that POSER is one of the better 3D programs out there. Having a degree in something does not make anyone an absolute master of that subject.
After all, you have a degree, Dragoneer. Only a ---DEGREE---. Not even a ---DOCTRINE---. until you do, you cannot judge a 3D modeling program. I know of some ---PROFESSORS--- that agree that Poser and DAZ both are great tools for the artist that doesn't have the time or money to 1)buy $5000+ software bundles, and 2)have the 500+ man hours to create a ---GOOD--- 3D model from scratch.
Indeed and well stated.yak said:Dragoneer/Preyfar does not single-handedly, exclusively and undeniably makes the rules on FA, neither runs this place all by himself nor is in charge of everything that happens and what's to come.
Stop looking at him in that role, please, because it is not so..
Rules are made by the staff and not by a single person. Preyfar's, Wolfblade's, Damaratus', my own, etc. opinion on them are equal and neither of them override each other.
Wolfblade said:Back to the topic: I personally feel that Poser does indeed take more effort than simple character generators, but the ultimate decision should depend on what is being done with the tool, not simply what the tool happens to be. If someone is just posing a pre-rendered in-package model, with no personally created elements, then it IS just being used as a more elaborate character generator. If they are using the tool to actually create, then there should be no bias against the creation just because of the tool used to create it.
Preyfar said:Yes, this is true... I did announce it, and I've always felt that way. Why a "chip? I'm a 3D artist/animator. I build my 3D models from the ground up, bone the mesh, map the UV, create and design my textures. I'm degreed in the digital animation field and have done so professionally for a career in various applications and shows. Thus, to me, comparing what somebody does in Poser -vs- what I can do...Ranard Lightningfall said:True, but we belive the issue, and why everyone is so angry, is why is this even being considered? And it does not help that the front man has obvious chip on his shoulder for aid program. He blatently anounce it.
However, that is on a personal level. I do not want that to interfere with how I view things on this site, nor how the rules should be crafted. If we were judging based on my personal preferences, there'd be a lot of things disallowed on this site. But this site is not founded on my personal tastes, nor will it ever be.
There are many things that can be debated as to whether Poser is art, and that's what this thread is for. I'll vote for whatever is best for the site, not my interested. There's a few hundred thousand submissions on FA, and there's a lot of them I don't like or disagree with. It's not my place to side against them out of personal like/dislike.
My personal interests are not the site's. I do my best not to mix personal and professional opinion when and wherever possible (and trust me, given my job I have to do that often).
After reading the comments in this thread, I'm in agreement with Damaratus and see no reason they should go. They may still fall under the spam rule (aka, if somebody posts 10 images of the same pose, just from different angles, they excess may be considered spam).ebonyleopard said:I say leave it be, though I'm not sure how much weight the comments of anyone here could sway the decision making process of the head guys of FA, considering how the last rule change issue went.
DarkMeW said:Use of 3D software that relies on pre-existing or altered content (no matter to what extent) violates the 'By You' created content of the AUP. The artist must show not only original concept in creation of 3D models, they must express the application of artistic principles and fore thought to each generated image uploaded. Snap shot type images of even original 3D model concepts are not allowed.
bryceowen said:I'm confused by this... What I read here states, and correct me if I'm wrong:
"Use of 3D software that relies on pre-existing or altered content (no matter to what extent) violates the 'By You' created content of the AUP."
Even if you made your own model in X program and imported it into Y program because Y program allows easier scene setups is not allowed because it wasn't created by you(?). That's what I'm reading here. "No matter to what extent." I created it in program X and it had to be exported to program Y because program Y doesn't allow me to create things (ergo 'pre-existing').
"Snap shot type images of even original 3D model concepts are not allowed."
And THIS... Well this just kinda kills ALL 3D artwork. Poser, MAX, Maya... Even original 3D models aren't allowed. Unless I don't understand 'snap shot' the same way as someone in the 3D scene.