Predators and Prey

[ssaannttoo]

I am probably not following the last few comments correctly, but is the saying ignorance is bliss but knowledge is power

apply here

That is a whole lot of emotion and though in a very small amount of words.

 

[Arishipshape]

Perhaps, I tend to think more mathematically and scientifically, so to me objective truths can be proven using math and science. I don't really see objective truths with humanity, because we are all different. We are raised differently and we have been through different thinkgs that change the way we perceive the world around us. For something to be objectively true it can't be something that everybody agrees on. It must be right. And at the current moment that is unreachable for humanity because we aren't divine beings and therefore can't think on a level that can make us objectively right.

You’re so right, and yet missing your own point.

Take math. Math is objective proof that objectivity exists. 2 and 2 make 4, no matter how many people believe differently.

I believe that there are philosophical truths that are just as true as “2 and 2 make 4”, and I also believe that, like math, humans can understand these truths to some extent. If mathematical truths can exist, and humans can comprehend them, why can’t moral truths exist which humans can comprehend? That doesn’t mean humans will never be wrong, of course. We can also be wrong at math. But the point is that that truth exists, whether we understand it or not. Would you claim that we can’t really know whether 2 and 2 make 4, just because we aren’t divine?

 

[Arishipshape]

That is a whole lot of emotion and though in a very small amount of words.

Ignorance is bliss, but at a price. The price of ineptitude, incompetence, and ultimately huge regret. Knowledge hurts now, but ultimately allows you to live the good life.

 

[ssaannttoo]

why can’t moral truths exist which humans can comprehend?

I think "moral truths" exists however they aren't universal. What is right to you and me may be wrong for other people. therefore who is morally right?

 

[Stray Cat Terry]

Good and evil ABSOLUTELY exist. You are correct in that it feels subjective, because often one man can deem something evil that another man deems good, but there is a solution: objective truth, which exists outside of humanity. I believe that objective truth does exist, and by reason, logic, and counsel from your fellow man, you can come closer to that objective truth than you could otherwise get alone.

I’d refer you to Pascal’s wager. If there is nothing in the universe everlasting, than nothing matters in the long run, and believing that something matters won’t negatively impact anything. If there IS something everlasting, I.E. a human soul, then what you believe and do in the world DOES matter, and it would be wise to act as though it did. You have nothing to lose, and everything to gain, by simply assuming that things matter, even if they don’t.

I also believe humanity has a purpose. I won’t elaborate further, as I’m trying to keep my arguments strictly logical, but there is a faith that agrees with them.

Rather than creating meaning on the ultimate result, I would think in a big picture mindset.

Every single thing done in this world may or may not influence the flow of anything. Although if nothing is everlasting thus that alone may make nothing meaningful after all, the world is all about the process, in my opinion.

Even if I die the next second, I did had some conversation with you all. This alone provides potential to influence you majorly (like revise your thoughts, etc) or minorly (like keeping you from doing something else while spending time here with me). And that alone may or may not change the future.

For example, we actually are born in this world, defeating trillions of rival sperm cells. This alone is a result. And now, the old result is creating new results, say, that we are the ones chatting here.

So... I guess, everything has meanings, even if we view something has to be lasting in order to be meaningful. The process, like a line drawn--which is composed in infinite dots--makes everything meaningful, even if the 'dot' itself contains so little meaning on its own.

And I have to say... It's a bliss chatting these with you, thank you for your time and efforts. It's not like I can feel bliss in my life since my decent past...

 

[ssaannttoo]

and ultimately huge regret

To be able to regret you need knowledge. If you don't know what could have been then there is no regret.

 

[ssaannttoo]

Even if I die the next second, I did had some conversation with you all. This alone provides potential to influence you majorly (like revise your thoughts, etc) or minorly (like keeping you from doing something else while spending time here with me). And that alone may or may not change the future.

This was quite insightful

 

[ben909]

Morals are human constructs, and to a large part “good” and “evil” and even “right” and “wrong”

 

[ssaannttoo]

Morals are human constructs, and to a large part “good” and “evil” and even “right” and “wrong”

I believe philosophical truth can also be added to this list because you can argue either point of view. Like in math 2+2 is 4. The outcome HAS to be 4. For moral discussions it could go either way and if you have the same conversation the next day the answer may be completely different

 

[Arishipshape]

I think "moral truths" exists however they aren't universal. What is right to you and me may be wrong for other people. therefore who is morally right?

Moral truths have to be universal. Saying that they change from person to person would be like saying 2 and 2 make 4 for some people and 5 for others. That doesn’t make sense.

Rather than creating conditional meaning, I would rather think in a big picture mindset.

Every single thing done in this world may or may not influence the flow of anything. Although if nothing is everlasting thus that alone may make nothing meaninful after all, but the world is all about the process, in my opinion.

Even if I die the next second, I did had some conversation with you all. This alone provides potential to influence you majorly (like revise your thoughts, etc) or minorly (like keeping you from doing something else while spending time here with me). And that alone may or may not change the future.

For example, we actually are born in this world, defeating trillions of sperm cells. This alone is a result. And now, the old result is creating new results, say, that we are the ones chatting here.

So... I guess, everything has meanings, even if we view something has to be lasting in order to be meaningful. The process, like a line drawn--which is composed infinite dots--makes everything meaningful, even if the 'dot' itself contains so little meaning on its own.

And I have to say... It's a bliss chatting these with you, thank you for your time and efforts. It's not like I can feel bliss in my life since my decent past...

But if everything is finite and comes to an end, then nothing will matter after that end, period. There can be no meaning in what was once existent and influential if whatever went down doesn’t affect the present.

Morals are human constructs, and to a large part “good” and “evil” and even “right” and “wrong”

NO NO NO! Morality is established outside of humanity by necessity. No human is omniscient, no human has a right to establish objective principles like morality of his own volition.

 

[ssaannttoo]

Wow ben909 you are really good at saying a whole lot without saying much!

 

[Arishipshape]

I believe philosophical truth can also be added to this list because you can argue either point of view. Like in math 2+2 is 4. The outcome HAS to be 4. For moral discussions it could go either way and if you have the same conversation the next day the answer may be completely different

The outcome has to be 4 to be true. If I used flawed logic to come to the conclusion that the outcome is 5, I’d be wrong, but I could still argue for it. Same goes for moral discussions. It is possible to argue in favor of the wrong thing. Doesn’t mean there isn’t a right answer.

 

[Arishipshape]

To be able to regret you need knowledge. If you don't know what could have been then there is no regret.

True. I believe knowledge is pretty much inevitable. It’s hard to stick your fingers in your ears and go “lalalala” till you die (or realize that to know is better not to know)

 

[ssaannttoo]

Moral truths have to be universal. Saying that they change from person to person would be like saying 2 and 2 make 4 for some people and 5 for others. That doesn’t make sense.

WARNING!! *Now before I continue I would like to say that I in no way condone Nazism in any way shape or form*

During WW2 Nazis blamed Jews for their problems and so they just started killing them. To the Nazis they are 100% right because they saw themselves as better. To the allies they saw this as abhorrent *Which it is* and they must be stoped. The only reason we think the slaughter of Jews during WW2 is bad is because the allies won. If the Asix powers won the war then there may not be any Jews left. Morality can't exist beyond Humanity its something we make up to make us feel better about our actions.

 

[Arishipshape]

WARNING!! *Now before I continue I would like to say that I in no way condone Nazism in any way shape or form*

During WW2 Nazis blamed Jews for their problems and so they just started killing them. To the Nazis they are 100% right because they saw themselves as better. To the allies they saw this as abhorrent *Which it is* and they must be stoped. The only reason we think the slaughter of Jews during WW2 is bad is because the allies won. If the Asix powers won the war then there may not be any Jews left. Morality can't exist beyond Humanity its something we make up to make us feel better about our actions.

No! Absolutely not! Even if Germany took over the world and succeeded in genocide, there would still be people that think they are wrong, and they would still be wrong. Of course, a lot of people would support them just because they are in power, but those people don’t hold a philosophy of truth. They hold a philosophy of “might makes right”, and if that’s true, then the hypothetical world-dominating Nazis would be right. Good thing that’s NOT true, eh? If morality was strictly a human construct, then it wouldn’t be objective. If there was no objective morality, then you could make an argument for the Nazis being right. Again, good thing there is morality outside of humanity.

 

[Stray Cat Terry]

All these stuff, after all... I believe, at least some of those who decide not to live on any longer, shall be this. The deep complexity and the concept to justice.

I used to... you know, decide not to live on cuz of this, with all the major and minor dramas.

But now, I feel like I should crave for more meanings that I haven't realized and haven't discovered. And especially when I'm thinking, and more importantly when I get the chance to discuss this with the beings who aren't me, makes the alive me more meaningful.

 

[WXYZ]

Complexity is no curse.

This is why redundancy is sometimes a good thing

 

[Arishipshape]

All these stuff, after all... I believe, at least some of those who decide not to live on any longer, shall be this. The deep complexity and the concept to justice.

I used to... you know, decide not to live on cuz of this, with all the major and minor dramas.

But now, I feel like I should crave for more meanings that I haven't realized and haven't discovered. And especially when I'm thinking, and more importantly when I get the chance to discuss this with the beings who aren't me, makes the alive me more meaningful.

Read “Man’s Search for Meaning” by Victor Frankl. He makes the points I’d like to make much, much better than I ever could.

 

[ssaannttoo]

No! Absolutely not! Even if Germany took over the world and succeeded in genocide, there would still be people that think they are wrong, and they would still be wrong.

*Again I don't condone Nazism*

But what makes us right and them wrong? *killing people is bad, and killing people because of what they believe is terrible and should never be done, I'm just using this as an extreme example* There are people that justify killing people for the "greater good" Morals is something that is personal to an individual. they create them for themselves or borrow them from others, its like making a pizza. You pick and choose what you like and then you roll with it.

 

[ben909]

No! Absolutely not! Even if Germany took over the world and succeeded in genocide, there would still be people that think they are wrong, and they would still be wrong. Of course, a lot of people would support them just because they are in power, but those people don’t hold a philosophy of truth. They hold a philosophy of “might makes right”, and if that’s true, then the hypothetical world-dominating Nazis would be right. Good thing that’s NOT true, eh? If morality was strictly a human construct, then it wouldn’t be objective. If there was no objective morality, then you could make an argument for the Nazis being right. Again, good thing there is morality outside of humanity.

... in that world, the people who thought otherwise would be killed, and unfortunately people probably could be conditioned to believe the killing was ok, or even good, the only public communications allowed would paint the <everyone they did not like> as a devil like group thats very existence causes misfortune, and that they improved the world by eradicating them

this is wrong in our culture, and i think most cultures, but could be perfectly ok in the culture they tried to create

 

[Stray Cat Terry]

I sense a potential witchhunt being followed by misinterpretation upon the topic containing Nazism.

I would rather save my breath on politics.

Anyways, Nazi lost, thus they are 'losers'. I better not talk about 'losers'...Even if it is only meant to serve as an example.

 

[WXYZ]

I would rather save my breath on politics.

This. Please, let's return to regular business.

 

[Arishipshape]

*Again I don't condone Nazism*

But what makes us right and them wrong? *killing people is bad, and killing people because of what they believe is terrible and should never be done, I'm just using this as an extreme example* There are people that justify killing people for the "greater good" Morals is something that is personal to an individual. they create them for themselves or borrow them from others, its like making a pizza. You pick and choose what you like and then you roll with it.

Because there is an objective truth that the Nazis contradicted: that truth being the inherent worth of a human life, no matter how “problematic” or “annoying” or “economy crushing” or “sub-human” anyone may claim them to be. Human life has inherent worth, no matter what any evil dictator says. Therefore, genocide is wrong, UNLESS it is to prevent an even bigger genocide (which, to my knowledge, has never and probably will never come up). Killing people technically can serve a greater good, but that greater good has to be greater than the death (I.E. Killing Hitler (and/or the other people responsible) before World War 2 would have been “good” because, while their lives were lost, much, much more were saved). Morality is nothing like pizza. It’s more like gravity. It exists. You can deny it and fight it all you like, but it’s always there, always pulling, never changeable by man.

 

[ben909]

Yea... the example fit the conversation well, and extreme examples work best for this kind of conversation because they push things to a point were its clearer


But it might be better to put that example aside for people that see it out of context

 

[Arishipshape]

... in that world, the people who thought otherwise would be killed, and unfortunately people probably could be conditioned to believe the killing was ok, or even good, the only public communications allowed would paint the <everyone they did not like> as a devil like group thats very existence causes misfortune, and that they improved the world by eradicating them

this is wrong in our culture, and i think most cultures, but could be perfectly ok in the culture they tried to create

Indeed, people can be conditioned to say that wrong things are right. Take, for example, that Star Trek episode where Picard was tortured into admitting that there were 5 lights on display, rather than four. Even if the torturer succeeded in breaking Picard, there still would have been 4 lights. And even if the Nazi’s succeeded in forcing everyone to call them “right”, they would still be wrong.