Religion in the Furry Community

[Hakar Kerarmor]

And yes, I'm completely serious. I did just pull of a string of references, but I think they're relevant.

Since we're stringing references anyway, how about this from the Big Friendly Giant:

(after two generals 'discuss' how they are going to 'pacify' the giants)
Queen of England: "Gentlemen. There will be no bombs, and no guns. The giants are not to be hurt."
General: "But your majesty! They eat children! They're murderers!"
Queen of England: "That is no reason to follow their example."

 

[CaptainCool]

You ever listen to Cat People? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YWX_MFNOL_Y#t=169

The chorus goes "Well I've been putting out the fire with gasoline! Putting out the fire...with gasoline!" Granted, Bowie was talking about pent up sexual tension and refraining from having sex (...it makes sense if you know what Cat People is about, the movie that is). But I still think it works; by "fighting back" you're simply adding to the fire.

In other words, I agree with Ayattar. You shouldn't be "retaliating", you should be trying to be better than Christians and not stoop to the level of "Getting back" on them. Take a page out of Xanatos' (from Gargoyles) book and realize that "revenge is a sucker's game". Go watch Fearless sometime and learn that "Hatred only begats more hatred".

And yes, I'm completely serious. I did just pull of a string of references, but I think they're relevant.

You know what? Yes. You are right. Yes. Absolutely. Yes.
When they tell me that being gay is wrong because their god says so? I should just sit here and take it. Or when they come up with a bullshit law or if a court decides in favor of them just because of religious reasons? Yes you are right, I should just sit here and be ok with that. Or when a party that is in power is making decisions based on their religion that affects my life? Who cares, right?^^ Oh or how about tax money being wasted for religious projects (which does happen here in Germany)? Don't worry, I already have my thumb up my ass :3

FUCK. THAT. SHIT.

 

[Nikolinni]

You know what? Yes. You are right. Yes. Absolutely. Yes.
When they tell me that being gay is wrong because their god says so? I should just sit here and take it. Or when they come up with a bullshit law or if a court decides in favor of them just because of religious reasons? Yes you are right, I should just sit here and be ok with that. Or when a party that is in power is making decisions based on their religion that affects my life? Who cares, right?^^ Oh or how about tax money being wasted for religious projects (which does happen here in Germany)? Don't worry, I already have my thumb up my ass :3

FUCK. THAT. SHIT.

Way to completely miss the point .-.

I'm not saying you shouldn't protest or oppose when they do stuff like that, I'm opposing being an asshole about it and being mean towards religious people. THAT'S what the fire is. THAT'S what "Getting back" is. That's what the hatred is. Being ragey, aggressive, vile, whatever towards religious people because of the bullshit that they've done. It doesn't help. It just fans the flames. Y'know, you can say what's wrong with religion and the things they do without going "YEAH! FUCK RELIGION! BRAINWASHED ASSHATS!" Claiming that I'm saying to have your thumb up your ass while religious people do foul pretty much tells me you have NO idea what I'm trying to say. If a religious person is mean to you and you're mean back guess what? Yeah, you still have the fires of animosity and opposition going. Not to mention you become off-putting to other people becasue hey, they might not like your rude aggresive behavior.

That's what I mean. Again, I'm not saying you can't protest religious people, I'm saying that it's better to not be an asshole to religious people, and be overzealous with whatever it is you believe or follow. Because that makes you the same as them. Oh, but I know what you'll say. It's different. Well guess what? No it isn't. Overzealous is still overzealous, rude, mean and aggressive is still rude, mean and aggressive; it doesn't matter who's doing it or why.

 

[CaptainCool]

I'm opposing being an asshole about it and being mean towards religious people.

But that is not what I do! In threads like this I voice my opinion and when I see a religious person squirt out nonsense from their mouthhole I tell them that they are wrong but I don't actively trash every religious person I meet...

 

[Fallowfox]

And as an atheist I hate people like you exactly the same as religious zealots.
You
Are
Doing
It
Wrong
Just
As
Them

>Make fun of dark age belief systems
>'Just as bad' as people who use dark age belief systems to strip employees of their full health insurance or pollute classrooms with falsified religion-compatible science

 

[Hakar Kerarmor]

But that is not what I do! In threads like this I voice my opinion and when I see a religious person squirt out nonsense from their mouthhole I tell them that they are wrong but I don't actively trash every religious person I meet...

And that's the other side of this whole mess.

Are there theists who are perfectly fine, decent people? yes.
Are there theists who are complete dickwads? yes.
Are there atheists who are perfectly fine, decent people? yes.
Are there atheists who are complete dickwads? yes.
Are there theists who will take anything atheists say as proof that all atheists are complete dickwads? yes.
Are there atheists who will take anything theists say as proof that all theists are complete dickwads? yes.
Are there theists who are blind to complete dickwad theists being complete dickwads? yes.
Are there atheists who are blind to complete dickwad atheists being complete dickwads? yes.

In the end, there are no real 'sides' to this, and the only way to find out a person's real position is to talk with them, and not at them.

 

[Nikolinni]

But that is not what I do! In threads like this I voice my opinion and when I see a religious person squirt out nonsense from their mouthhole I tell them that they are wrong but I don't actively trash every religious person I meet...

Well, it was mainly that I was voicing my opinions on (trashing religious people and being overzealous). Your response made it sound like you're totally down with doing both those things (either that, or you thought I meant "don't do anything at all"). Fighting for what you believe in is one thing, but fighting for what you believe in and being rude, aggressive, and overzealous is another.

It's just that I see a lot of minorities and atheists who think it's okay to do things like fight for rights, but be aggressive and hateful towards the oppressors, which does nothing really. Sure you might end up getting your rights in the end, but these types might feel like getting revenge, which isn't good at all and can be a severe lose-lose for anyone involved.

>Make fun of dark age belief systems
>'Just as bad' as people who use dark age belief systems to strip employees of their full health insurance or pollute classrooms with falsified religion-compatible science

Yeah, it's just as bad. Look pal, if you say something like "Racism is bad", it doesn't matter if you're somehow "evening the field" by doing something racist to a race in the majority it's still friggin racist, I don't care how much you say "It's for the greater good!"; you just went against your own premise.

 

[CaptainCool]

It's just that I see a lot of minorities and atheists who think it's okay to do things like fight for rights, but be aggressive and hateful towards the oppressors, which does nothing really. Sure you might end up getting your rights in the end, but these types might feel like getting revenge, which isn't good at all and can be a severe lose-lose for anyone involved.

If religious people think atheists are assholes for finally banning religion from public schools, just to name something that is very important to me, I would be totally fine with that.

Also, I think the best way to finally get rid of religion isn't by doing it in an aggressive way. You have to do it the passive way. No more religion in schools, no funding for religious organizations from the government, banning religious lobbying from politics (full seperation of church and state), purely secular education in schools.
More and more people stop going to church anyway. You just have to support this trend by removing religion from the public even further.

 

[Fallowfox]

Well, it was mainly that I was voicing my opinions on (trashing religious people and being overzealous). Your response made it sound like you're totally down with doing both those things (either that, or you thought I meant "don't do anything at all"). Fighting for what you believe in is one thing, but fighting for what you believe in and being rude, aggressive, and overzealous is another.

It's just that I see a lot of minorities and atheists who think it's okay to do things like fight for rights, but be aggressive and hateful towards the oppressors, which does nothing really. Sure you might end up getting your rights in the end, but these types might feel like getting revenge, which isn't good at all and can be a severe lose-lose for anyone involved.



Yeah, it's just as bad. Look pal, if you say something like "Racism is bad", it doesn't matter if you're somehow "evening the field" by doing something racist to a race in the majority it's still friggin racist, I don't care how much you say "It's for the greater good!"; you just went against your own premise.

I don't think making light of magical beliefs is tantamount to inciting racial hatred, nor did I ever claim it was for the greater good. I think that complaining that people mock a system of beliefs that should be mocked, and which people are entitled to mock just as they would mock the scientologists, is petty and that comparing it to real legal struggles as 'just as bad' trivialises real suffering.

 

[kiitsune]

I like that you acknowledge that the bible was written by people and isn't inspired by a higher power.

As for us "making fun of you"... What about christians forcing their beliefs into laws? Atheists aren't making fun of you. We are retaliating because we don't want your bullshit in our lives!

You can't say it's bullshit unless you have evidence to backup your claims but I can still understand you. Atheists should not be forced to do things that are about Christianity but being an asshole to Christians isn't going to help your situation at all.

 

[CaptainCool]

You can't say it's bullshit unless you have evidence to backup your claims but I can still understand you. Atheists should not be forced to do things that are about Christianity but being an asshole to Christians isn't going to help your situation at all.

What claims did I make? That your religion is bullshit? Last time I checked it was your religion that makes a shitload of unfalsifiable claims and it is your religion that isn't backed up by any evidence! And you folks have the nerve to call atheists idiots just because we are not falling for that nonsense...
Prove to me that your religion is true and I take it all back, but don't expect me to stay when being called an idiot for not believing in something that is so obviously fake.

 

[tisr]

There is a difference between atheism and anti-theism. Atheism is the lack of belief in gods, while anti-theism is the opposition of the belief of gods. It follows that all anti-theists are also atheist.

Anti-theists believe that the effect of religious belief is positively harmful, and that simply leaving it alone under the blanket of free speech and respect is ignoring the harm and unlawfulness carried out by theism. It therefore follows that they believe theism should be eradicated.

For me, I'm not really arguing against theism as much as arguing for reason.

 

[kiitsune]

What claims did I make? That your religion is bullshit? Last time I checked it was your religion that makes a shitload of unfalsifiable claims and it is your religion that isn't backed up by any evidence! And you folks have the nerve to call atheists idiots just because we are not falling for that nonsense...
Prove to me that your religion is true and I take it all back, but don't expect me to stay when being called an idiot for not believing in something that is so obviously fake.

No, you prove that it isn't true. You are not at a higher position to tell what we should do. I don't need to prove you anything and I don't care at all if you don't believe in God.

 

[tisr]

No, you prove that it isn't true. You are not at a higher position to tell what we should do. I don't need to prove you anything and I don't care at all if you don't believe in God.

Burden of proof. Atheists claim that there is no convincing reason to believe in god, not that no god exists.

The only way to not be atheist by definition is to be given a convincing reason to believe in god. It is also impossible to prove that something does not exist. The burden of proof lies in theists, who claim that a god exists, to give this proof.

Of course atheists are not a higher power to demand that you prove the existence of a god, but then you should not be surprised when atheists continue to lack a belief in gods as a result.

 

[CaptainCool]

No, you prove that it isn't true. You are not at a higher position to tell what we should do. I don't need to prove you anything and I don't care at all if you don't believe in God.

As I said above, please PLEASE look at how arguments work... That isn't about religion or science, it's about how to express your arguments properly. Whether you are religious or not, that is a universal standard...

Proving a negative is impossible! I am complitely unable to demonstrate that your religion is false. The only thing I can do is say that there is no evidence to support it and that is why I don't believe in it and why no one should believe in it.

 

[ADF]

People are using a technological wonder enabled by the cumulative knowledge of many different sciences, to demand that someone prove the world is naturalistic and isn't run by a magical sky daddy...

Science has solved many of the problems that were perpetuated by theistic ideology. It has put food on our table were religion just starved in hope of a god solving their ills, it has cured illnesses that religion consistently failed to cure through prayer, it has explained all of the things that theists attributed to super natural forces.

And yet now as they sit in the comfort of their 21st century scientifically enabled paradise, they have the audacity to demand proof that naturalistic thinking that has brought us everything we hold dear isn't wrong and that a MAGIC MAN IN THE SKY isn't the true explanation of how the universe works.

Holy shit.

 

[Fallowfox]

People are using a technological wonder enabled by the cumulative knowledge of many different sciences, to demand that someone prove the world is naturalistic and isn't run by a magical sky daddy...

Science has solved many of the problems that were perpetuated by theistic ideology. It has put food on our table were religion just starved in hope of a god solving their ills, it has cured illnesses that religion consistently failed to cure through prayer, it has explained all of the things that theists attributed to super natural forces.

And yet now as they sit in the comfort of their 21st century scientifically enabled paradise, they have the audacity to demand proof that naturalistic thinking that has brought us everything we hold dear isn't wrong and that a MAGIC MAN IN THE SKY isn't the true explanation of how the universe works.

Holy shit.

And if one points that out...well...you're obviously just as bad as religious lobbying groups defending hatecrime.

 

[ADF]

And if one points that out...well...you're obviously just as bad as religious lobbying groups defending hatecrime.

They're cowards. That's all they are, cowards. We all fear death, but they fear death to the point that they'll believe 'anything' they're told to push that fear to the back of their minds. They're enabling the holding back of human society, handing bigots and militants the shield of faith to hide behind, increasing human misery world wide and for what? Just so they can go another day without having to worry about death?

Selfish self indulgent cowards.

 

[CaptainCool]

They're cowards. That's all they are, cowards. We all fear death, but they fear death to the point that they'll believe 'anything' they're told to push that fear to the back of their minds. They're enabling the holding back of human society, handing bigots and militants the shield of faith to hide behind, increasing human misery world wide and for what? Just so they can go another day without having to worry about death?

Selfish self indulgent cowards.

I don't want to love forever, but I really hope they figure out immortality within the next 100 years. Because if they do religion is pretty much gonna end instantly.

 

[ADF]

I don't want to live forever, but I really hope they figure out immortality within the next 100 years. Because if they do religion is pretty much gonna end instantly.

Nah, they'll suicide bomb the immortality clinics, calling it a crime against god.

-edit

All religions focus on life after death, immortality would be the greatest abomination and "rebellion against god" imaginable.

 

[CaptainCool]

All religions focus on life after death, immortality would be the greatest abomination and "rebellion against god" imaginable.

Well then that's just one more reason to figure it out as quickly as possible! As an atheist naturally my goal in life is to sin as much as possible, so the greatest abomination and rebellion against god is just barely good enough for me :V

But you are right, they really would completely flip their shit if we ever figure that out... But then everyone is gonna get scared and they storm the clinics, not to get rid of them, but to become immortal themselves. No matter how insane you are, your most basic fears are still gonna dictate your actions.

 

[kiitsune]

As I said above, please PLEASE look at how arguments work... That isn't about religion or science, it's about how to express your arguments properly. Whether you are religious or not, that is a universal standard...

Proving a negative is impossible! I am complitely unable to demonstrate that your religion is false. The only thing I can do is say that there is no evidence to support it and that is why I don't believe in it and why no one should believe in it.

I was with you until the last part. You can't tell anyone what they should believe because it's their own business.

 

[CaptainCool]

I was with you until the last part. You can't tell anyone what they should believe because it's their own business.

I want people to be reasonable. I don't have an issue with people who keep personal beliefs personal but reasonable people don't believe in unfalsifiable claims that aren't backed up by any evidence. If you do you are not reasonable.

 

[Hakar Kerarmor]

Oh how I wish theists kept it their own business.

 

[Fallowfox]

I was with you until the last part. You can't tell anyone what they should believe because it's their own business.

'Nobody should believe the world is flat, because that is not consistent with observation'.

'Nobody should believe in magic, because all magic is either unexplained or has been explained as trickery or natural processes'

'Nobody should believe the holocaust didn't happen, because there's lots of evidence it occurred'

'Nobody should believe the moon is made of cheese, because lunar samples are anorthosite and basalt'