Sampling in rap.

[kurreltheraven]

I only skimmed this thread, so hopefully I won't be redundant, but let me give a few musings over why I really hate today's rap music (and why in hindsight I seem to appreciate the oldschool stuff more) when it comes to sampling

Aw. You didn't say anything about how the predominant use for rapping has gone down the gangsta toilet. I hope one day we can look back and consider this guns-bitches-and-bling stuff its own distinct genre of oozing arse instead of as just 'rap'.

But yeah, compare the Bomb Squad's work on classic Public Enemy to the sort of stuff that's around now.. huge difference. (Also Chuck D's voice could bring down buildings.) But ages back it was much easier (and cheaper!) to sample. People didn't consider it a revenue stream the way they do now; it was still a novel enough recontextualisation when done right that it delighted people to hear old chunks of music in new settings which enhanced it. Then they realised "hey, we're rights holders! a) we can get a piece of the action too! or b) wahh we're being ripped off SUE SUE SUE" and that ended the free-for-all. Aw.

 

[kurreltheraven]

I can throw any old few songs together, and pull them apart in pro-tools and sew them together again

The same as i can take a bunch of skin-lined wooden buckets and bits of metal and beat the arse out of them to a rhythm. (Actually, i can't.)

(Actually, i could but i shouldn't.)

but to know the mechanics of a drumset, and really love your set, and repair it and practice and practice and practice...that's true art.

Just like knowing the ins-and-outs of a well-stocked production rig (monitoring, software, hardware, etc) requires dedication to master and maintain.

I think when you say art you really mean passion.

 

[Defender]

But yeah, compare the Bomb Squad's work on classic Public Enemy to the sort of stuff that's around now.. huge difference. (Also Chuck D's voice could bring down buildings.)

Chuck D has one of the very best voices of any MC I've ever heard. So intense that he needs Flavor Flav for comic relief so we don't die.

 

[Baddwill]

Chuck D has one of the very best voices of any MC I've ever heard. So intense that he needs Flavor Flav for comic relief so we don't die.

Hell yeah!! His voice has been sampled by so many artists! All the way from New Jack swing songs to J-Pop (Listen to the ending of Bleach "happy People" song)

I think it's Chuck D saying come on in the scathc:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=brc9GTBPtWY

 

[Baddwill]

I have to disagree with you. I've been sitting on the cutting edge of drumming for a while. Yes, there's still a cutting edge, as we all saw when Johnny Raab started playing full Jungle/D&B grooves on an acoustic kit with only a set of sticks and a hand cymbal. (which is insane) I'm in an argument with a bunch of my drumming friends in which we disagree on weather a five-stroke roll into a flam is even a tangible idea in drumming, or just a muddled six-stroke. And those of us who agree that it is a tangible thing, still disagree if the roll is linked to the actual note, or to the grace note. Something as simple as that is being disagreed over. So, no, we still have our own ideas in drumming. The idea behind actual art is that your not only taking from the old, but adding a new idea and part to it, instead of just mixing together two different ideas.

I also take offense to the idea that you can create art with a machine (not referencing the quote, just a personal qualm) Art itself is not an idea. Art, is the physical expression of an idea. And when you put that idea through a machine, while it is still an idea, I find that it looses the heart behind the idea and it becomes what the machine dictates. Now, I can say that there are some DJs out there that spin some amazing mixes, but that is about 10% out of the entirety of DJing. Every drummer is an artist, because every drummer has his own style, his own take on grooves, no matter what the skill level.

10% of pogo-stick enthusiasts can pogo so good that it seems like an art form. They may be artists, but saying that hopping on a pogo-stick is art is completely missing the entire idea of what art is.

Of course, reality is subjective, so I leave it to you.

http://www.drummerworld.com/Videos/johnnyrabb1.html (my favorite is vid 4)

Every Beat maker is not an artist? Every Beat maker doesn't have his own style of sampling, drum sounds, transitions?

How does the machine dictate what an Idea becomes? Have you spent any time behind a sampler?

Why do you have a problem with a machine being considered an instrument? Because it's not acoustic? Why?

I feel that this type of thinking put's rules in music, I think it's better without rules, Because there are none, But so long as the music sounds good is what is important in the end no matter how it's made or what is used to make it.

You can switch the pogo stick with drumming too, I think drumming is kick-ass so don't get me wrong it's something I wanna learn too.

 

[nobuyuki]

Aw. You didn't say anything about how the predominant use for rapping has gone down the gangsta toilet. I hope one day we can look back and consider this guns-bitches-and-bling stuff its own distinct genre of oozing arse instead of as just 'rap'.

But yeah, compare the Bomb Squad's work on classic Public Enemy to the sort of stuff that's around now.. huge difference. (Also Chuck D's voice could bring down buildings.) But ages back it was much easier (and cheaper!) to sample. People didn't consider it a revenue stream the way they do now; it was still a novel enough recontextualisation when done right that it delighted people to hear old chunks of music in new settings which enhanced it. Then they realised "hey, we're rights holders! a) we can get a piece of the action too! or b) wahh we're being ripped off SUE SUE SUE" and that ended the free-for-all. Aw.

I would have mentioned that, and I actually did start writing a paragraph on it, but I thought it was off-topic. Let's not get into today's cheap gangsta bling and the drum and bass machines which provide the backdrop for it 8)
The bravado of it sickens me...

 

[Whitenoise]

But ages back it was much easier (and cheaper!) to sample. People didn't consider it a revenue stream the way they do now; it was still a novel enough recontextualisation when done right that it delighted people to hear old chunks of music in new settings which enhanced it. Then they realised "hey, we're rights holders! a) we can get a piece of the action too! or b) wahh we're being ripped off SUE SUE SUE" and that ended the free-for-all. Aw.

I think it's a perfectly understandable reaction, if I found out I'd been sampled without my permission and someone else was profiting off of my work I'd be pretty pissed as well. This kind of bullshit would stop pretty quickly if 100% of the revenue from a song comprised of unethical sampling had to be given to the person who's music was sampled.

 

[PunkFurry]

Every Beat maker is not an artist? Every Beat maker doesn't have his own style of sampling, drum sounds, transitions?

How does the machine dictate what an Idea becomes? Have you spent any time behind a sampler?

Why do you have a problem with a machine being considered an instrument? Because it's not acoustic? Why?

I feel that this type of thinking put's rules in music, I think it's better without rules, Because there are none, But so long as the music sounds good is what is important in the end no matter how it's made or what is used to make it.

You can switch the pogo stick with drumming too, I think drumming is kick-ass so don't get me wrong it's something I wanna learn too.

I understand the idea that music is there for the listener, and I'm happy that people listen to machine made beats if it's what they like. But to me, it's not art.

And yes, because it's not acoustic. But not for the reason you think...I have Reason on my desktop right now, and i use it to lay out ideas for songs, so i understand how to use electronics and I've spent time behind it. The difference is that when you use a beat maker, you have no quality behind it, no feeling. It's all pre-dictated in a soundstage somewhere. When you hit a drum, there are sooo many variables to the sound and the way you hit it and the angle of the stick on the drum, and the time you let the tip strike the drum. And that happens with every beat, every hit, and you create that sound, every time. Here...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g1sdFkV4rPk

This is Opie's Opus, probably one of the most insane tenor drum solos, (bats out of hell is amazing, hands down), played by it's writer, Bill Bachman. I'd like you to listen not only to the music itself, but to what he says after. You get blazed by this flurry of what seems like perfect music, and then you hear him say "Not perfect, but it'll do", and you sit there like "wow.....just...wow"...that's art.

And what amazes me is the fact that i see kids who have no musical prowess can pick up the electronics and read a manual and all of a sudden be expert "musicians", that's whats getting me over the whole thing. Does that mean that Britney Spears is an amazing singer because she can fix her voice with computers? Or does that mean that a guitar solo by dragonforce, who can't play their own solos on stage, is better than something played by someone like Frank Zappa?

And how can you use the pogo sticks for drums?

 

[Baddwill]

I understand the idea that music is there for the listener, and I'm happy that people listen to machine made beats if it's what they like. But to me, it's not art.

And yes, because it's not acoustic. But not for the reason you think...I have Reason on my desktop right now, and i use it to lay out ideas for songs, so i understand how to use electronics and I've spent time behind it. The difference is that when you use a beat maker, you have no quality behind it, no feeling. It's all pre-dictated in a soundstage somewhere. When you hit a drum, there are sooo many variables to the sound and the way you hit it and the angle of the stick on the drum, and the time you let the tip strike the drum. And that happens with every beat, every hit, and you create that sound, every time. Here...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g1sdFkV4rPk

This is Opie's Opus, probably one of the most insane tenor drum solos, (bats out of hell is amazing, hands down), played by it's writer, Bill Bachman. I'd like you to listen not only to the music itself, but to what he says after. You get blazed by this flurry of what seems like perfect music, and then you hear him say "Not perfect, but it'll do", and you sit there like "wow.....just...wow"...that's art.

And what amazes me is the fact that i see kids who have no musical prowess can pick up the electronics and read a manual and all of a sudden be expert "musicians", that's whats getting me over the whole thing. Does that mean that Britney Spears is an amazing singer because she can fix her voice with computers? Or does that mean that a guitar solo by dragonforce, who can't play their own solos on stage, is better than something played by someone like Frank Zappa?

And how can you use the pogo sticks for drums?

I meant that if people hit a drum well enough, that they start saying that it's an art, I meant to interchange pogo with drumming in what you said.

But it's all a matter of what person think, and everyone should have that right.

But I see where your coming from, the fact that anyone can make something on a program or a machine and start calling themselves musicians right?

Sort of like they are not putting in the work, skipping steps, I agree on that with you

But, I see the drum machine as a new instrument, I mean new, You gotta see the kind of stuff people make with them. It's kind of hard to explain it to people, it's like you gotta be into it

J-DILLA IS AWESOME!!!!!! I wish he didn't die

 

[PunkFurry]

"If people start hitting a drum well enough, they start calling it an art" Yes, it is. Why do you think John Mayer has such good beats, even though his drum set player is playing such a simple beat. This is what I'm saying. The feeling behind it can never ever be recreated by a machine, unless they sample from it, and even then they can't change the feeling to a new feeling and make it's own feeling.

There's actually a new phenomenon going on in studio musicianship, actually. (on a side note) There are people who want an acoustic drummer to play a machine sound. To play it, it's completely ridiculous, your entire perspective of feeling and time has to change, your rudimentary grip has to be changed to allow for no bounce back. But you can change your feeling to that, and put your own spin on it. (as Johny Raab did)

I've seen stuff people make music with a drum machine, and I've seen the very few good ones. I made a whole song with it that sounded great as an architype for a song in which i play. I guess the difference here is the POV we have on the feeling behind music. I feel that feeling behind the music is important. Some people believe that the feeling doesn't really matter. I find techno and rap so very sterile. When they loop and create beats from old, feeling-fulled beats, i find as though all the original feeling is pulled out of it, and it feels so quantized so that people can rap over it. I don't understand that practice, it's like taking the smile off the Mona Lisa and replacing it with a straight line.

To me, feeling is the most important thing. It's what makes and breaks a drummer. It's why when you try to comp a song, even if it's something as easy as AC/DC, it's hard to do what the artist is actually doing. Can you really play a beat by Lars Ulrich back in his Hay Days and look me in the eye and say that you got just as big a sound as he did, or that you can get the same flow as the Purdy shuffle? I've been drumming over half of my life and I still can't say that I've mastered Bonham. I can play Bonham, I can comp Bonham, I can improve upon Bonham, but I can't master him.

 

[Baddwill]

"If people start hitting a drum well enough, they start calling it an art" Yes, it is. Why do you think John Mayer has such good beats, even though his drum set player is playing such a simple beat. This is what I'm saying. The feeling behind it can never ever be recreated by a machine, unless they sample from it, and even then they can't change the feeling to a new feeling and make it's own feeling.

There's actually a new phenomenon going on in studio musicianship, actually. (on a side note) There are people who want an acoustic drummer to play a machine sound. To play it, it's completely ridiculous, your entire perspective of feeling and time has to change, your rudimentary grip has to be changed to allow for no bounce back. But you can change your feeling to that, and put your own spin on it. (as Johny Raab did)

I've seen stuff people make music with a drum machine, and I've seen the very few good ones. I made a whole song with it that sounded great as an architype for a song in which i play. I guess the difference here is the POV we have on the feeling behind music. I feel that feeling behind the music is important. Some people believe that the feeling doesn't really matter. I find techno and rap so very sterile. When they loop and create beats from old, feeling-fulled beats, i find as though all the original feeling is pulled out of it, and it feels so quantized so that people can rap over it. I don't understand that practice, it's like taking the smile off the Mona Lisa and replacing it with a straight line.

To me, feeling is the most important thing. It's what makes and breaks a drummer. It's why when you try to comp a song, even if it's something as easy as AC/DC, it's hard to do what the artist is actually doing. Can you really play a beat by Lars Ulrich back in his Hay Days and look me in the eye and say that you got just as big a sound as he did, or that you can get the same flow as the Purdy shuffle? I've been drumming over half of my life and I still can't say that I've mastered Bonham. I can play Bonham, I can comp Bonham, I can improve upon Bonham, but I can't master him.

I only take offense to how it sounds like your saying that there's no feeling behind it, of course it's not gonna be the same feeling a drum or guitar or any other acoustic instrument will give you

 

[PunkFurry]

But what feeling -does- it have?

 

[Baddwill]

But what feeling -does- it have?

Soul, that's the way I describe it in one word, When the beat starts coming together it's so exciting and it get's you moving, You can feel the sample, basslines, drums, the energy of the beat.

It can start all the way to the beginning of the process, I get excited and feel great when I'm in a record shop, man it's heaven to me, So much music that I haven't heard yet, that I can find, and when I preview something at the shop, I can feel the beat I'm gonna make, I put it together in my head way before I even get to the MPC 2000XL Drum machine.

I don't know if that explains it, or makes sense to you, but that's me. And you have your own process too you know?

But you're right that it's point of view. If I started on an acoustic instrument first, I would feel differently about it. But this came first.

And it really shouldn't matter what the world/society thinks, It's about finding your own talent and sticking with it, If it makes you happy, nothing or nobody should ruin it for you

It's been nice having this conversation with you by the way no joke.

 

[Monarq]

That stupid song SOS is a total rip off of Soft Cell's Tainted Love.

 

[Baddwill]

That stupid song SOS is a total rip off of Soft Cell's Tainted Love.

Yup, That's an example of uncreative sampling.

yet that Soft Cell song is a cover of Gloria Jones, have you heard it?

 

[PunkFurry]

It's been nice having this conversation with you by the way no joke.

Lol, while I feel differently, I agree with this whole-heartedly

 

[kurreltheraven]

Here...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g1sdFkV4rPk

This is Opie's Opus, probably one of the most insane tenor drum solos, (bats out of hell is amazing, hands down), played by it's writer, Bill Bachman. I'd like you to listen not only to the music itself, but to what he says after. You get blazed by this flurry of what seems like perfect music, and then you hear him say "Not perfect, but it'll do", and you sit there like "wow.....just...wow"...that's art.

Actually i sat there thinking it was a technically brilliant drum performance, but as a non-drummer it bores me. It's so technical and precise that it leaves no room for anything from the performer that registers on an emotional scale.

 

[Defender]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g1sdFkV4rPk

This is Opie's Opus, probably one of the most insane tenor drum solos, (bats out of hell is amazing, hands down), played by it's writer, Bill Bachman. I'd like you to listen not only to the music itself, but to what he says after. You get blazed by this flurry of what seems like perfect music, and then you hear him say "Not perfect, but it'll do", and you sit there like "wow.....just...wow"...that's art.

What's funny is, those drums sound so strange pitch-wise and are being played so robotically that they sound like they were sequenced on a computer to me.

 

[Baddwill]

What's funny is, those drums sound so strange pitch-wise and are being played so robotically that they sound like they were sequenced on a computer to me.

The fact that he can call that art, but not the process of an amazing beat made from samples on a drum machine is what doesn't make sense to me

 

[Kit H. Ruppell]

Really pisses me off when nobody knows the song that was sampled, which is ALWAYS more substantial and far more intelligent.

 

[SnowFox]

08-04-2008, 05:41 AM

lol

 

[Renard_v]

I'll just kind of bump in, because I do a lot of heavy sampling.

To me, sampling is partially a collage work, but moreso for me, taking something that means a lot to me, and incorporating it into something new that I can enjoy (and hopefully others in the process). Sampling has always been interesting in the hardcore dance scene, because it's something that gets people excited; I love hearing familiar melodies and vocal tracks that I grew up listening to in new environments.

Another part of sampling, for me, is finding a resource that not only counters what I'm currently doing, but also blends with it fairly seamlessly. I've trashed whole projects because I couldn't find "that perfect vocal track" or other resource. Part of it is also being witty with said samples; introducing parody through use of samples is something that I've always enjoyed doing.

Things like that. It's all good fun. :]

 

[TDK]

Sampling is in the same vein as rock band covers or techno remixes. But the recklessness of it now a days is ridiculous, they're not bringing nothing new to the table nor giving props to the original sound, just straight up stealing. Should charge these fuckers with Grand Theft Beats.

 

[TheComet]

I can deal with sampling in rap...a little....but as soon as I hear it in mainstream songs that everyone goes on about as "DA BWEST SONG EVAR" I feel like kicking a baby's face in, because it means minimal effort with a massive paycheck :/

I guess it's my vendetta against the mainstream partially too....RIP Music Circa 1996 :/

 

[protocollie]

It's all in execution. That's it. There's as much artistry to DJing or production electronically as there is to anything else. It's hard to sit on the outside of music production from an electronic perspective and say 'oh, yeah. that's real music' when you're wrapped up in playing drums or guitar or whatever. I feel a serious difference between what I feel when I play and when I sit down to produce, as well.

But like anything at all artistic, it's a matter of execution. Someone here said all drummers are artists. Bullshit they are. I guarantee you 95% of drummers are total hacks with no inspiration, no real drive or artistic focus and who certainly bring nothing worthwhile to the table. Think about it - pretty much every song you ever hear has a drummer in it - how many of them do you actually know and respect? It's a smaller number than the whole population. That's why good drummers are a valued commodity. Because most of them suck ass. If all drummers were good, being a good drummer wouldn't be remarkable.

Same thing goes for sampling. Some artists are badass at it and really tear up and create something new. A sampler's an instrument like anything else, and you can either use it to make contrived, boring crap, or things that people want to hear.

I know that I'm going to get torn apart for saying this but essentially you're doing the equivalent of getting angry because someone incorporated the same kind of flower into a painting that another artist did. You'll spot a hack artist because you'll be like, 'hey, what the fuck. this is the same as that other guy i really like.' The real artist is the one who puts their own spin on it.

My guess is you've just not heard good sampling. Check out Aesop Rock.

It's all in how you use it.

And as a final though: Done with only a sample of a trumpet :] http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YiSFxDJQU48