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Sexual Orienation...Confusion?

Draco_2k

Rawr.
People's inability to produce a five-cell neuron reaction never fails to produce interesting, if a bit sad, results.
 

mukichan

Chibi Chubbeh Draggie
I'm also very outspoken about atheism but that doesn't make me a closet atheist. I'm offended that you'd even think of me as such.
Besides, I like guys. I feel that I couldn't have as fulfilling a relationship with a girl as I could have with a guy, and I've always gotten along better with guys. I love men, and often I never got along too well with other women. There are exceptions but most of the time I felt more comfortable hanging with guys.
The one thing was just a fluke and it happened in highschool when I was in a period where I wanted to be accepted by others, made ONE friend my own age, and got obsessed. That is where it ended. You guys said yourself that when you're a teenager, things go haywire. Well I'm an adult now, and I wouldn't turn away from heterosexuality for the world. I love being hetero, so why would I change it?
Oh I know what you're thinking, "well I love being homo so why would I want to change it?" Maybe it's you who need to sit down and re-examine yourselves and realize it's unnatural and wrong.
Also, it could be that I just keep getting a nagging feeling that it's wrong. Everyone here would probably think I'm a total nutcase but I believe that feeling is the holy spirit. The idea never sat well with me. And probably never would, entirely. I just feel like men and women were meant to be together...not separated into male groups and female groups of 2 pairs each.
Also, I'm not as bad as some people who want to shoot them down and kill them all.

...

I'm sorry but please, quit trying to change people from homosexuality. Let them live their life. It's not like they're affecting your life in any way shape or form. We're not TELLING you to become a homosexual or anything. Just get over it and tell yourself that you're just going to have to end up living on the same planet with these people.

I'm sorry that we aren't like you. I'm sorry that we don't have the same beliefs as you. But as far as I know, why should we be like you? Why should everyone be like you? If everyone was the same, life would be boring. So please, leave them alone and drop the subject.

I know you're probably thinking "But at least I'm better than so-and-so and not running around and killing them." Who knows? Destiny doesn't know jack shit. Life doesn't know jack shit. NO ONE KNOWS JACK SHIT! You don't control your life, it controls you. And life makes you live how you should live for YOURSELF.

Bitch at me all you want, I won't respond back. Heckle, I don't think I'm going to come back to this thread. =_=; Too much arguing.
 

Runefox

Kitsune of the PC Master Race
Ah, you people are getting too angry over this. You're fuelling the fire! Your concerns are certainly valid, but your delivery needs a little work. ... Yanno? Don't let it get to you. The internets isn't really that serious business.
 

MauEvig

Celestial Angel Kitty
As for Mukichan's comments I can certainly say the same thing. If no one on this forum disagreed with homosexuality then it wouldn't spice things up any now would it? It'd be borring.
 

Runefox

Kitsune of the PC Master Race
Don't take this the wrong way; I don't agree with what you're saying, personally, but I think that everyone should take a step back and take a few breaths before it runs a little deeper and evolves into something I'll need a fire-retardant suit for. :p
 

CAThulu

In FAF CAThulu lies dreaming..
I can't be alone anymore....I would embrace over baring people, rather than be alone another god damn second. Trust me...Its driving me crazy.

You know, I think Draco made a good point back there. And I know what you're going through. Maybe my age won't make a difference...brushing 30 here...I"ve been single for almost 10 years. But you know what? It's been filled with some pretty good people. I have great friends in my life right now, and while I don't have someone to hold or hold me at night, I know I'm loved.

I could have been in a relationship many times over since I broke up with my ex girlfriend, but I haven't. The right person hasn't come along, and I would rather be alone then in a relationship where the person made me feel like shit (or worse, beat the ever living hell out of me). I've seen people in those situations (been in the former), and it's not worth it. I"ve had to learn to be happy in my own skin, and that took A LOT of work.

The same confusion applied here too. I was wondering for a while, what the hell is wrong with me? Am I attracted to men or women? Why is it that what guys would find attractive in girls I don't like, or what women find sexy in guys I don't agree with? The short answer is I'm picky ;). The long answer is that I look at the interior and the exterior. As I said to a coworker earlier today about what I like in girls, if they have everything I like on the outside but the light isn't on upstairs, then I'm not interested.

Do you know what I say now about being Bisexual? I'm an equal-opportunist. Your earlier question about 'what happens if you're dating a guy, and you get attracted to a girl' (something like that, sorry about the misquote). Any one can get that way about anyone. What if I was straight, and I was afraid of dating guy A because guy B might come along and I'll find him more attractive? I think if you're in a relationship and you're head over heels for someone, it's not going to matter. You'll admire the scenery but if you're with the right person, then the eyecandy won't draw you away.

I don't know if that all makes sense; I'm regurgitating personal experiences here ;)
 

ExTo

Under the sea, near heat vents
Every group really has its low points. Furries can be the most beautiful people you've ever met, and the most low, despicable examples of humanity possible. The point is, "furries" aren't anything in particular in comparison to everything else.

People are people. As difficult as it might be to accept, we're all human.

This is the best post of this thread so far, and the best I've seen in a while. Entirely true.

Besides, I like guys. I feel that I couldn't have as fulfilling a relationship with a girl as I could have with a guy, and I've always gotten along better with guys. I love men, and often I never got along too well with other women. There are exceptions but most of the time I felt more comfortable hanging with guys.
The one thing was just a fluke and it happened in highschool when I was in a period where I wanted to be accepted by others, made ONE friend my own age, and got obsessed. That is where it ended. You guys said yourself that when you're a teenager, things go haywire. Well I'm an adult now, and I wouldn't turn away from heterosexuality for the world. I love being hetero, so why would I change it?
Oh I know what you're thinking, "well I love being homo so why would I want to change it?" Maybe it's you who need to sit down and re-examine yourselves and realize it's unnatural and wrong.
Also, it could be that I just keep getting a nagging feeling that it's wrong. Everyone here would probably think I'm a total nutcase but I believe that feeling is the holy spirit. The idea never sat well with me. And probably never would, entirely. I just feel like men and women were meant to be together...not separated into male groups and female groups of 2 pairs each.
Also, I'm not as bad as some people who want to shoot them down and kill them all.

I'll agree with you you cannot be considered closeted just because you are outspoken against homosexuality. You did harbor feelings for a girl at one point, and that's enough for me to say you have been bi for a moment there (I put accent on emotional bond even more than lust when it comes to defining sexuality), but I see no reason why disbelieve you when you say you are exclusively straight now.

But again. Homosexuality is not, in away way, shape or form, unnatural and wrong. You cannot, simply cannot, defend this argument. It's impossible. I'm hoping that in five years, you'll look back and wonder how you could ever have thought such a thing, because damn it's backed by *absolutely nothing* but the most bogus of insignificant excuses and biased interpretations of arguably precise numbers, gathered by organizations of questionable interests, which can be bended any way to fit any kind of argument at one's will. For example, watch me instantly twist the "gay relationships don't last as long" argument into something positive : gay couples do not fear breaking up because gays are freer in their interpretation of their emotions and are more capable to identify when feelings of love are waning than straight people, whom often spend their lives with partners they are not attracted to. See? I just made that on the spot. It's certainly wrong, but it follows logic, and yet I used the same damn numbers you did. It's subjective bullshit on all the line, but many would hear this and say "hey, it's true!" if it was next to a pretty graph and a long acronym represented a research group.

Plus, in what way would acting upon your feelings be unnatural? Is there not something more natural? A person with homo feelings whom doesn't act upon them is going against their natural emotions - that is unnatural.

Also, to me... "nature" is bull. Human nature does not exist, IMO.

And finally, tell me, WHY is homosexuality wrong? Alternatively, WHAT is wrong? What is right? I want boundaries. You can't say something fits a concept if it has no boundaries.

Not to mention the anti-gay drama.

*COUGH COUGH COUGH*

MauEvig is clearly speaking from fear and disgust, not logic. Don't waste time trying reason.

Mau's attitude in other threads has shown sufficient interest in reasoning and legitimate arguing for me to consider going on to be worthwhile.

I never saw the whole thing about titles. Definitively gay, bi, straight...
God dammit just find what you find attractive, bang what you want to, and enjoy life! There are as many different sexualities as there are people on this planet. Don't ascribe to needing a title like that. If you like a girl but you normally like guys, so be it, and vice versa. If you like a transgendered person and normally you prefer people born one way or the other, so be it. Don't worry so much. :3

The funniest thing is that, ironically, that would make you fit the definition of pansexuality.

NOW, that is quite ironic considering you reject labels, and I do personality see "pansexual" as a bit of a novelty term used by people so they look cool (though with time the "craze" will surely die down, the term will cement and its definition will become clear and accepted), but regardless of all that, you basically just described pansexuality here, haha.

Also, I agree with you on an important point : people shouldn't "limit their attraction" (if that's possible at all) to their self-imposed label, but label themselves after the attraction they feel (if to label themselves they decide).

I have come to terms with that fact now. I just am looking for someone to hold at night. To me it doesn't matter the sex anymore....I just don't want to be alone in the end.

Honestly, that is more frighting than anything else in my mind. You know?

I understand that. Often I'm there wondering what's the point to life, why I'm trying anything at all, why I go to school, what I work for, why I see making comic books as a dream while it changes absolutely freaking nothing to anything whatsoever and doesn't give life any damn point.

Then I just realize... life doesn't make sense, but it doesn't need to, and yes, while that nonense is hard to go through on your own, having someone else to cling to (and vice versa) can, at the least, limit one's apprehensions and doubts.
 

LoinRockerForever

Interesting...
I understand that. Often I'm there wondering what's the point to life, why I'm trying anything at all, why I go to school, what I work for, why I see making comic books as a dream while it changes absolutely freaking nothing to anything whatsoever and doesn't give life any damn point.

Then I just realize... life doesn't make sense, but it doesn't need to, and yes, while that nonense is hard to go through on your own, having someone else to cling to (and vice versa) can, at the least, limit one's apprehensions and doubts.

Life doesn't make sense, and it doesn't have to. I agree with that, its just It confuses me beyond belief. I mean, I guess am just too open in my sexuality I guess to pick a side....but its a problem cause I would like to know for certain what sex I like more......but at the same time I hate being alone and at this point I can't decide what sex I am interested in to start dating again On my facebook lol I have both sexes selected for my preference.

Meh, Maybe it just boils down to the type of person they are, that might be a bigger point than their sex.
 

Jijix

Terminally Uncool Lioness
That's fine, but Jijix doesn't have to automatically assume that I'm gay just because I'm opposed to it. That is just as much a steriotype as the gay queens and lesbian butches. Oh gosh she's against it she must be a lesbian. Riiiiiight.
If anything I'm being snappy because of those comments, and yes I'm seriously offended by that.
Someone once said "maybe you're bi" and I got pretty upset.
But even if I was, and I'm not saying I am, I'd still never touch a girl and I would remain loyal to the man I love. Aside from that, it'd be rather foolish for me to pursue a homosexual relationship when I'm perfectly happy in the hetero one I'm in right now. Not to mention the anti-gay drama. No thanks.
I still say it's a choice though, and if you go by the everyone's bi logic, then everyone CAN choose to be straight too.

I'm using logic to make a valid argument. I was surmising.
Just as you surmise hetero couples live longer and othersuch tripe, I can surmise that you're secretly gay. See my logic?
I think you ought to stop being so concerned with what's in between someone's legs, and think more about who they are as a person.

Also, this is the Internet. If you're going to get all SRSLY OFFENDED and butthurt and stuff... Take a breath, go outside, and relax.
 

wolfmagik

Media Slave
Also, this is the Internet. If you're going to get all SRSLY OFFENDED and butthurt and stuff... Take a breath, go outside, and relax.

Truer words have not been spoken. Whatever happened to the logical thinking that "If you don't like it, don't get involved?" It seems to me that more and more people purposefully put themselves in situations they don't like simply to complain/raise hell/cause grief on the people that are having a perfectly OK time. Hate to use the term, but I don't know why some people just HAVE to cause so much DRAMA.
 

Draco_2k

Rawr.
Truer words have not been spoken. Whatever happened to the logical thinking that "If you don't like it, don't get involved?" It seems to me that more and more people purposefully put themselves in situations they don't like simply to complain/raise hell/cause grief on the people that are having a perfectly OK time. Hate to use the term, but I don't know why some people just HAVE to cause so much DRAMA.
Problem is, some people have an imaginary old man somewhere high in the sky that tells them to help people no matter what, because if they don't, he'll send you and them to a giant lake of fire after you die because he loves all of us so much. After all, "helping" someone is not the same as just trying to convince them you're right, is it?..

Fucking shit. Stop helping.
 

Bambi

Joined 2008 - Returned 2022
Okay, honestly I have said before that I am gay. ( and have done gay things mind you ) But at the same coin I still am attracted to girls...and find some of them beautiful, but....I feel like I am not worthy of their liking.

It was hard for me to break the ice with women -- I think most of them thought I was just going to be like every other guy, jumping on them for a quickie. No, I would only do that with the men (I say that now but just never found someone who was interested in me sexually or perhaps just liked me for who I was).

When I didn't, I think most of my former girlfriends where shocked and thought that I didn't like them (because I wasn't sex glomping them.) I consider myself Bi also -- but mostly affiliate with the gay side of things because guys I readily like and girls I just don't understand. I'm not even brave enough to ask one a question, because I'm just real worried.
 

MauEvig

Celestial Angel Kitty
I'm using logic to make a valid argument. I was surmising.
Just as you surmise hetero couples live longer and othersuch tripe, I can surmise that you're secretly gay. See my logic?

But then your logic is flawed and fallacious.


I think you ought to stop being so concerned with what's in between someone's legs, and think more about who they are as a person.

As much as I'd like to do that, I couldn't because I know it's wrong.

Also, this is the Internet. If you're going to get all SRSLY OFFENDED and butthurt and stuff... Take a breath, go outside, and relax.

And I havn't been nearly as SRSLY offended as some people in the other Sexual Orientation threads.

And Exto...there are ways to argue why it's wrong...but since the majority of the people on here are atheists it wouldn't have any grounds because they're religious points of view.
Now, if an arguement were presented: Homosexuality from a religious perspective THEN I would think my arguments would stand ground. If you're an atheist, or if your religion doesn't believe homosexuality is wrong, then you're right.
I CAN however argue that right and wrong are NOT subjective, by giving the following example: is murder wrong? Is murder subjective? How many people here feel that murder is wrong? Let's say I got pissed one day and killed someone. But I didn't feel it's wrong. Should I not be arrested and tried for what I did? What's the difference between murder and war? In a way, there really is none, except one is mass killing and the other is preemptive killing.
Then there's man slaughter where it gets really complicated.
In any case, because you guys are probably atheists, pagans, agnostics or whatever, you have no reason to believe homosexuality is wrong. But the Bible clearly states that it is...far as I know so does the Koran for those of you who are muslim furries (I don't think there are though but I don't think it's totally impossible.)
So wrong or right it is clearly a religious argument that should be kept within the boundaries of religion.
 

Runefox

Kitsune of the PC Master Race
Time to jump into the fray a little, because I see a few little uncertainties in your argument that are nagging at me.

I CAN however argue that right and wrong are NOT subjective
You just said that they were by proxy by saying:

If you're an atheist, or if your religion doesn't believe homosexuality is wrong, then you're right.
... So... Which is it? Are Atheists and other religions wrong or right? Is right and wrong a subjective, or objective, fixed concept? Here's a nice way to find out: Make a survey. Ask people whether taking a pen from work is stealing... See how many responses you get. That should help prove that right and wrong are very much subjective things, since those concepts are man-made.

Let's say I got pissed one day and killed someone. But I didn't feel it's wrong. Should I not be arrested and tried for what I did? What's the difference between murder and war? In a way, there really is none, except one is mass killing and the other is preemptive killing.
Well, there's a difference there. You would have imposed your will upon another person (in the highest degree imaginable - Death), which in my mind is serious on its own. Homosexuality is, usually, between consenting adults, and in the end doesn't cut short anyone's life out of malice like, say, sticking a knife in someone's eye. Love is a beautiful thing, no matter what form it takes, and while there may or may not be a passage in the bible to that effect, the major point is happiness.

Are the smiles on a gay couple's face a grand lie? Their fulfilment, their livelihood, their life? Are they any less capable or deserving of the same sort of love that a heterosexual couple would feel?

In the end, even if it's the work of Satan or temptation, and even if it goes against the word of God, don't you think that it should be God's judgement? Who are you to speak for God? Who is anyone to speak for God? Humans, even priests and the most virtuous among us, no matter how young or old, no matter which race or religion, all are tainted by their own agendas and their own beliefs passed down over thousands of years.

In my mind, we humans have no right to judge by God's word. We may judge based on our own laws and practices, but God's word is something that He, Himself, should enforce. What I'm trying to say is, try to guide people to the path that you believe is correct, but do not call them "wrong" simply because you believe it to be so in God's words.

Yes, I'm saying this as an atheist - Or rather more accurately, someone who doesn't truly care enough about what happens when he dies to bother believing in anything. However, having been brought up by a school system that was catholic all the way, and the things I've learnt over the years about it, I realize that there are a lot of Christians out there who really don't understand what it was that Christ gave them, nor the virtues he really taught. I believe he said something along the lines of "let he who is without sin cast the first stone", to a crowd who were about to stone to death an adulterer, of all things to protect. Adultery is a violation of one of the ten commandments. That far outweighs Sodom and Gomorrah in my books. Specifically, I believe that particular commandment is located at Exodus 20:14, "You shall not commit adultery".
 
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CAThulu

In FAF CAThulu lies dreaming..
Runefox: Trying to stay clear of the arguement here so hats off to you for your post. Couldn't have said it better myself.

Anyone in favour of dropping this 'homosexuality is a sin' arguement? Gods know i've heard enough of it in my lifetime to rehash the thing on the net.
 

Steele

Ganja Idolotrist
Okay, nobody flame me for this, it's just an opinion but here goes...

It's okay to be gay, it's okay to be straight, and it's okay to be bi...But never, NEVER be so confused that you break someone's heart.

I had known my ex-hubby for 6 years (He was at one point my best friend) before he came to America. He was "gay" at one point, but I "Turned him straight" when we had a relationship back in the days...I hadn't known him to be with another man on a serious basis since we had known each other, so when he came to the states I was ecstatic! We met up, hooked up, and I thought we'd be together forever on principle alone, at the least.

In January of last year he wrote me an EMAIL to end our MARRIAGE, and left the country two days later. Now he's one of the biggest faggots I know. (Relax, before anyone gets out of shape...It's a term of endearment, I <3 my manymany gay friends and mean no offense by the term).

The point is, don't be one thing one day and another the next. Don't drag someone you care for into a relationship if you are unsure inside what your orientation is. Be dedicated, nomatter which side of the fence you decide to eat the grass from...And above all, don't break someone's heart because you're uncertain...

Maybe this is an unpopular opinion, but hell hath no fury like a woman scorned and - TRUST ME - that's the worst way to scorn ANYONE.

Other than that - *HUGS!* I hope you get it figured out! Just follow your heart!
 

Runefox

Kitsune of the PC Master Race
CAThulu: Yeah, I'm trying to stay out of it, too, but when I see something wrong, I have to fix it. You know? :p

Steele: Yeah, that pretty much sums up why I can't have / try not to let myself want a relationship right now.
 

EmpusaVampirebat

Flying Chupacabra
I still love you confused people. ^^ I do hope, no matter what, all of you are happy. If you ever need an ear to talk to, I'm always willing to listen and try to help. :D

PLease, no more fighting over silly things.
 

CAThulu

In FAF CAThulu lies dreaming..
CAThulu: Yeah, I'm trying to stay out of it, too, but when I see something wrong, I have to fix it. You know? :p

Steele: Yeah, that pretty much sums up why I can't have / try not to let myself want a relationship right now.

Runefox: Same here. If a point is raised that I really need to respond to (and believe me, I've come darn close), I will. But it looks like other people are saying what's on my mind and there's no reason for me to add to it :D

Steele: Amen. I remember one girl in highschool that had a boyfriend and a girlfriend at the same time because she believed that because she was bisexual she could have both relationships because she wasn't cheating since both of her lovers were opposite gender (are your eyes crossed yet? My brain STILL hurts over that logic *L*). The girl's boyfriend, a friend of mine, called me up, crying on the phone because this broke his heart. One person at a time is a good rule to go one :cool:
 

MauEvig

Celestial Angel Kitty
Ok y'know what I'm seeing here. The pro-homosexuality argument uses an appeal to love.
I don't really know if it's an actual fallacy or not, but I'd like to see other arguments besides the "love is never wrong" arguement. I'm not trying to argue for or against love, I'm trying to argue for or against homosexuality.

Well, there's a difference there. You would have imposed your will upon another person (in the highest degree imaginable - Death), which in my mind is serious on its own. Homosexuality is, usually, between consenting adults, and in the end doesn't cut short anyone's life out of malice like, say, sticking a knife in someone's eye. Love is a beautiful thing, no matter what form it takes, and while there may or may not be a passage in the bible to that effect, the major point is happiness.

But if you steal something knowing what it is, that is also technically imposing your will upon someone else as well. Let's say you steal someone's identity and their money. You think that's wrong or that it's subjective too?
Why then is it that it's automatically wrong to kill someone, and not wrong to steal?
But right and wrong are subjective right? So following that logic, so should murder be subjective.
But that's an entirely different argument, I only wanted to imply that right and wrong were not merely subjective.
The point I was trying to make was that I was trying to look into the mind of the atheist. Atheists can't really have a basis of what right and wrong is because nothing can really tell them except themselves, and that in my opinion is invalid. They can't argue homosexuality is wrong. I did NOT say right and wrong did not exist, but merely that the atheist and I mean a true atheist should not have a sense of true right and wrong, or even morality. Morality then would also be subjective.
But seriously this isn't about right and wrong, it's about whether or not homosexuality is wrong. It's not an ENTIRELY different subject matter, but right and wrong deal with a wider spectrum than merely homosexuality.
So what I'm saying is, since atheists don't have a true point of view regarding right and wrong and morality, then they can't really say that homosexuality is wrong or right because right and wrong are subjective.
In fact, I'm actually trying to point out the errors of atheist philosophy. You can't pick and choose what is right or wrong. Either it is, or it isn't. There's no such thing as a 'gray area.' And this is also why Christian philosophy, which trully distinguishes right and wrong, as more accurate in a logical sense.
 

CAThulu

In FAF CAThulu lies dreaming..
Ok y'know what I'm seeing here. The pro-homosexuality argument uses an appeal to love.
I don't really know if it's an actual fallacy or not, but I'd like to see other arguments besides the "love is never wrong" arguement. I'm not trying to argue for or against love, I'm trying to argue for or against homosexuality.

Well, generally relationships, ideally, are based on love. But it's beside the 'love is never wrong' arguement. It's also about how one person cannot dictate how a complete stranger choses how to live his or her own life based on ethics, as long as it does not harm anyone else. I've had this discussion with people, who claim that if homosexuality is legalized, then why not bestiality or pedophilia. the short answer to this is simple, the latter are not based on consensuality. if two adults enter a consensual, sexual relationship with one another it's no one's business but their own. I am excluding of course, the unusual situations such as abuse, since that is something that anyone is at risk to in a relationship, be it hetero or homosexual in nature.

it has also been documented that animals in nature have had same sex pairings, such as deer. And while the bible states that we are man, and not animals, we are all still driven by the same impulses: to feed, sleep, and procreate (in both creating offspring and in the sexual drive)

But if you steal something knowing what it is, that is also technically imposing your will upon someone else as well. Let's say you steal someone's identity and their money. You think that's wrong or that it's subjective too?
Why then is it that it's automatically wrong to kill someone, and not wrong to steal?
But right and wrong are subjective right? So following that logic, so should murder be subjective.
But that's an entirely different argument, I only wanted to imply that right and wrong were not merely subjective.
The point I was trying to make was that I was trying to look into the mind of the atheist. Atheists can't really have a basis of what right and wrong is because nothing can really tell them except themselves, and that in my opinion is invalid. They can't argue homosexuality is wrong. I did NOT say right and wrong did not exist, but merely that the atheist and I mean a true atheist should not have a sense of true right and wrong, or even morality. Morality then would also be subjective.
But seriously this isn't about right and wrong, it's about whether or not homosexuality is wrong. It's not an ENTIRELY different subject matter, but right and wrong deal with a wider spectrum than merely homosexuality.
So what I'm saying is, since atheists don't have a true point of view regarding right and wrong and morality, then they can't really say that homosexuality is wrong or right because right and wrong are subjective.
In fact, I'm actually trying to point out the errors of atheist philosophy. You can't pick and choose what is right or wrong. Either it is, or it isn't. There's no such thing as a 'gray area.' And this is also why Christian philosophy, which trully distinguishes right and wrong, as more accurate in a logical sense.

Have you ever heard of a 'red herring'? It describes a tactic that is used to draw a person's attention away from the original theme of the arguement. Comparing murder and homosexuality is frankly like comparing apples and elephants. Not even in the same ballpark. Murder is taking someone's life away from an individual. The only example I can think of where someone can impose their sexuality on another is through rape, and we all know that heinous act crosses all borders, races, creeds, and orientation.

The idea that athiests do not have a true point of view regarding morality does not take into account the individual's need for self preservation and consideration for others. That statement pretty much compares athiests to amoeba, which I assure you they are not. Athiests, like anyone, live in a society bound by rules and law (that are not all created through religious beliefs...show me the bible verse about parking meter bylaws and I'll show you a three dollar bill :D). Ethics are not bound by whether or not you have a particular religious creed (in this case I'm assuming you mean the Bible). It is part of what is commonly known as the Collective Unconscious of the human species. It is where we share our commonality as a species, and where the golden rule comes from ("do unto others...."). It's why the same ethical laws have cropped up across the globe no matter where you go. We also have a conscious in our Ego that ideally creates a stop-gap against letting our instincts take over and getting us into trouble. In a healthy individual, the ego rules the id, that is to say the consciousness rules the instinct. A great way I heard this put is that the id tells you it's hungry, but it's the ego that can use the can opener. that is not to say that we should ignore our id. without it, we would not have the instinctual drives that we need to survive.

I hate to break it to you kiddo, but you did not look through an athiest's eyes. You looked at an athiest's stance through Christian eyes. I've read your posts and honestly I can't see you stepping back and even trying to comprehend where others are coming from, and worse still you are imposing your own sense of morality on others who do not share your views by using misinformation and, frankly, some very insulting insinuation.

I say quit while you're ahead. You'll be better off for it. :grin:

Blessed be,


CAT
 

Xipoid

Cameras
But if you steal something knowing what it is, that is also technically imposing your will upon someone else as well. Let's say you steal someone's identity and their money. You think that's wrong or that it's subjective too?
Why then is it that it's automatically wrong to kill someone, and not wrong to steal?
But right and wrong are subjective right? So following that logic, so should murder be subjective.
But that's an entirely different argument, I only wanted to imply that right and wrong were not merely subjective.
The point I was trying to make was that I was trying to look into the mind of the atheist. Atheists can't really have a basis of what right and wrong is because nothing can really tell them except themselves, and that in my opinion is invalid. They can't argue homosexuality is wrong. I did NOT say right and wrong did not exist, but merely that the atheist and I mean a true atheist should not have a sense of true right and wrong, or even morality. Morality then would also be subjective.
But seriously this isn't about right and wrong, it's about whether or not homosexuality is wrong. It's not an ENTIRELY different subject matter, but right and wrong deal with a wider spectrum than merely homosexuality.
So what I'm saying is, since atheists don't have a true point of view regarding right and wrong and morality, then they can't really say that homosexuality is wrong or right because right and wrong are subjective.
In fact, I'm actually trying to point out the errors of atheist philosophy. You can't pick and choose what is right or wrong. Either it is, or it isn't. There's no such thing as a 'gray area.' And this is also why Christian philosophy, which trully distinguishes right and wrong, as more accurate in a logical sense.


1. Poisoning the well will not help you here.

2. Christian philosophy (should it exist) is not more accurate in a logical sense. In reality, it is the opposite of logical because you assert a conclusion and support it with a completely unsupported and unaccredited book based off circular logic, question begging, and appeal to consequence.

3. If killing is automatically wrong, then so is killing in self-defense.

4. Morality is subjective. Just look at abortion debates.

5. Murder is objective because it has a well-defined, clear definition ("the unlawful killing of another human"); however, how right/wrong murder is subjective. See: Intent and circumstance

6. Attempting to look into the mind of an atheist (or anyone else) will just lead to straw men and/or ad hominems, unless you have telepathy.

7. Right and wrong's subjectivity is the argument here. You are attempting to prove why homosexuality is wrong. Your opponents are trying to prove why right and wrong are subjective, which would make your argument inconsequential and invalid. You cannot simply ignore/dismiss their argument without proper reason unless you wish to be ignored/dismissed yourself.

Atheists can't really have a basis of what right and wrong is because nothing can really tell them except themselves, and that in my opinion is invalid. They can't argue homosexuality is wrong. I did NOT say right and wrong did not exist, but merely that the atheist and I mean a true atheist should not have a sense of true right and wrong, or even morality.

8. Please cite credible evidence for this.
 

MauEvig

Celestial Angel Kitty
I say quit while you're ahead. You'll be better off for it. :grin:

Why should I quit while I'm ahead? Anyway I wasn't trying to create a Red Herring. I was actually pointing out that the arguement was getting destracted and that we should focus on the initial argument. If you would read what I said carefully you would've seen that I also said "but this is for another argument." I was implying that we should take the morality/right and wrong argument to another thread.
Not that I'm much better, I only really skimmed through most of what you said (because I'm tired at this point...xx; )
However, I wasn't creating a Red Herring because if I was, I'd be intentionally trying to get people to stray from the argument, in reality I was trying to point out that we WERE straying from the argument and should get back on topic. I was also suggesting that we shouldn't use the love argument, because anyone can use the love argument. I just wanted to point out that right and wrong was neither objective nor subjective, but once again like I said:

But right and wrong are subjective right? So following that logic, so should murder be subjective.
But that's an entirely different argument, I only wanted to imply that right and wrong were not merely subjective.

I did NOT say right and wrong did not exist, but merely that the atheist and I mean a true atheist should not have a sense of true right and wrong, or even morality. Morality then would also be subjective.
But seriously this isn't about right and wrong, it's about whether or not homosexuality is wrong. It's not an ENTIRELY different subject matter, but right and wrong deal with a wider spectrum than merely homosexuality.

You get what I was trying to say now? Or do I need to do some bird hunting?

I wasn't comparing Homosexuality to Murder, I was using Murder as an example of how Right and Wrong aren't subjective. Then I realized this was a "right and wrong" argument and not necessarily a "homosexuality is wrong" argument. So with that said, let's keep the focus on that from now on whether "homosexuality is wrong or not" then.
And for now I'm out because I'm dead tired xx;
 
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CAThulu

In FAF CAThulu lies dreaming..
wow....you completely avoided the points I was addressing in my post. or even recognized that I did address your inquiry on other points other then the 'love is never wrong' spin on why homosexuality is not wrong.

Yeah. Try bird hunting. Or politics. I think you'd be great at the latter.

C-ya.

CAT
 
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