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So I was in Best Buy, and Lair was on the Demo PS3. . .

Bokracroc

Bokra, come out to pla-ay
psion said:
Summercat said:
psion said:
Span_Wolf said:
psion said:
The story I'm getting from Gamespy is that Lair was a good idea that just went horribly, horribly wrong. It has to be one of the lowest ranked games they reviewed for next gen. If you REALLY want a reason to get a PS3, I recommend waiting for Haze to finish up. If it lives up to what Free Radical is planning, it will be a sweet spin on traditional FPS game play. However, with the Timesplitter series, Free Radical seems to have a better track record then Factor 5.
Since when did Resistance: Fall of Man stop being a reason to pick up a PS3?

Correction, Resistance is currently the ONLY reason to pick up a PS3. And before you even ask, I'm on my second or third play through and still enjoying it and I hate FPS games, especially console ones. It's a testement to how a good story can trump everything I guess.

Foxstar, your comparison is like comparing the first Terminator movie to Citizen Kane. CK is a art film, the likes of which have never been duplicated since. The Terminator is just a movie you sit down for because it has a interesting story idea and a lot of cool explosions.
Likewise, the steller storytelling of Deus Ex and Bioshock will probably never be fully reproduced ever again, not even by their creators.

System Shock
System Shock 2

Freespace
Freespace 2

Starlancer
Freelancer
Wing Commander
WC: Privateer

Fallout
Fallout 2
Balder's Gate
Balder's Gate 2
Planescape: Torment

I beg to differ.

I have to disagree with some of your choices but I see...

Just curious, which ones?
Personally I didn't really like Starlancer, or was it Freelancer?
I get confused. Maybe it was both?:?:?:(
 

psion

Member
Most of those games I haven't played but probably should. However, out of that list I'd have to say Fallout 2. I loved the first one and enjoyed the second one but it just didn't quite have the same vibe the first one did.
 

Stratelier

Well-Known Member
themocaw said:
and the Gamecube, which can survive a nuclear bomb hit and still start up.
(I should sig that.) Reminds me of that old episode of G4's X-Play where they knocked consoles around a bit. PS2 was the first to drop, the XBox's faceplate broke off, after which the GameCube was the survivor.

THE CONTROLS AREN'T SUPPOSED TO BE A QUICK MOVEMENT, DAMMIT! It's been proven a lot. You must be smooth with the control.
It's true you can't exactly turn a ten ton dragon on a dime, but unfair expectations happen. Speed impresses. Cutscenes depict speed quite well. Aerial shooter gameplay . . . well, unless you want to put a fan in front of you for the wind chill, the distant terrain crawling along very slowly isn't exactly the image of speed.

Foxstar said:
at the end, Lair plays JUST like Rouge Squadron, minus a Hoth level and a Death Star.
*visualizes a squad of dragons attacking the Death Star* Yeah, you're right.

When a game released for the Xbox back in 2002 remains the premeir dragon combat game, something's wrong, yet hugely funny.
Which game was that?
 

themocaw

Member
Stratadrake said:
themocaw said:
and the Gamecube, which can survive a nuclear bomb hit and still start up.
(I should sig that.) Reminds me of that old episode of G4's X-Play where they knocked consoles around a bit. PS2 was the first to drop, the XBox's faceplate broke off, after which the GameCube was the survivor.
If you think that's awesome, there was a Mexican show that did the same thing, except with more brutality. The Gamecube's case shattered into pieces and it still booted up. The components weren't damaged at all. Course, it was unplayable, but still. . .

Stratadrake said:
THE CONTROLS AREN'T SUPPOSED TO BE A QUICK MOVEMENT, DAMMIT! It's been proven a lot. You must be smooth with the control.
It's true you can't exactly turn a ten ton dragon on a dime, but unfair expectations happen. Speed impresses. Cutscenes depict speed quite well. Aerial shooter gameplay . . . well, unless you want to put a fan in front of you for the wind chill, the distant terrain crawling along very slowly isn't exactly the image of speed.
I've been thinking about this, and honestly, you know what would have helped? Barrel rolls. If snap-tilting the controller hard did a different command than smoothly turning it, that would have been acceptable. Like, if you could do a quick flank in mid-air, a variation of the 180, by snapping the controller left and right. Given the Sixaxis, though, it probably would have triggered too often.

Stratadrake said:
When a game released for the Xbox back in 2002 remains the premeir dragon combat game, something's wrong, yet hugely funny.
Which game was that?

Panzer Dragoon Orta, of course.
 

Dragoneer

Site Developer
Site Director
Administrator
Span_Wolf said:
Since when did Resistance: Fall of Man stop being a reason to pick up a PS3?
Resistance is a good game (although, I think it has the single worst "weapon zoom" mode of any FPS I have ever seen), but it's no reason to buy a PS3. One single $60 game can not justify the $600 price tag (soon to be $500 - again, for the second time).

I ordered a PS3, but... canceled it. after seeing no good games and hearing how loud my roommate Furp's PS3 is I'm going to wait for a revision to the system. His sounded like a small turbine when doing the @home project. I can't even imagine it gaming.
 

psion

Member
Preyfar said:
Span_Wolf said:
Since when did Resistance: Fall of Man stop being a reason to pick up a PS3?
Resistance is a good game (although, I think it has the single worst "weapon zoom" mode of any FPS I have ever seen), but it's no reason to buy a PS3. One single $60 game can not justify the $600 price tag (soon to be $500 - again, for the second time).

I ordered a PS3, but... canceled it. after seeing no good games and hearing how loud my roommate Furp's PS3 is I'm going to wait for a revision to the system. His sounded like a small turbine when doing the @home project. I can't even imagine it gaming.

Yeah, waiting for them to develop the core base is a good idea. I'm STILL waiting for another good game like Resistance.
 

Armaetus

Nazis, Communists and Antifa don't belong on FA
One game worth waiting for PS3: SILENT HILL 5
 

Summercat

Former Motterator
psion said:
I have to disagree with some of your choices but I see your point even though we're comparing Apples to Oranges. All of those games benefitted from improvements in technology and designers asking themselves "wouldn't be cool if?"
Deus Ex and Bioshock are/will be winners of multiple game of the year awards, they represent a incredible gamble on the dev teams involved on trying something that wasn't really done before or as expansively as they did it, and they both had the potential for a epic failure like the forgettable PC sci-fi survival sim Deus (released in the mid-90's.)

Psion, I disagree with some of those games as being great games worthy of worship. But others like 'em. Enough others worship 'em for me to count on a list as games in a series that either kept up the exceptional levels of expectation of the first, or just kept getting better.

Fallout is, in my mind, the quintessel turn based isometric RPG. Ever. Beats out Baldr's Gate 1 and 2, beats out any Diablo, beats out everything. The ONLY game that comes close is Arcanum, but that's not balanced (Magic >>>>> Technology)

Fallout 2 has a tighter code and system, as gameplay wise, is a bit better, but I rate it lower than 1 due to... all sorts of anachronistic things. I felt the writing was sub-par compared to 1. But others liked it as much, if not better.

I'm not really comparing apples to oranges. I'm not really saying anything about the dev teams behind the games.

Someone tried to make the point that you can only expect things of 'awesome' level once in a long while, and usually not in succession.

All I tried to do is prove that lightning can strike multiple times. It doesn't always (Master of Orion 2 vs 3... heheh, and the lead designer for 3 is my boss now), but it can happen (Warcraft / Starcraft / Diablo).

As for me, I care little about graphics anyhow =D
 

Rhainor

Rawr.
On the subject from a few posts back about the durability of consoles...

I've seen an original Xbox that took a bullet and still ran fine; along with an X360 that got flung from a car during a crash, landed on the pavement, and subsequently got run over, and still worked.
 
I feel that i must also point something out that i believe is a testimate to sony's eminent downfall in the gaming world. Squarenix, the major creator of most of sony's major benchmark games, and who, for as long as they have been in existance, has been a sony exclusive, has announced that they will be going multi-consol. Yes thats right! we may very well see Final Fantasy games on Microsoft and Nintendo consols in the future. This is a Major blow to sony as many many many of their popular games were created by Squarenix. losing this exclusivity is going to cost them in the future.

Also, As of now, Nintendo stands out on top. It is the oldest and most successful, soly videogame based company in existance and they have the greatest video game minds on their side. they have a MASSIVE following of loyal players and buyers across the globe that no other company can compete with. For an example, only like 130 units of the Xbox 360 were sold in japan on the first day, while over 150,000 units of the Wii were sold on its release date. (im pretty sure that number is right. if not its more and you get my point)

However i do believe that in the coming decade, Microsoft will become a major contender. they have the right stuff so far and have done well considering how much less time they have spent in the Console wars. The Xbox has definatley grown in popularity in the US and in many other countries. including South Korea, one of the biggest video gaming countries in the world. i would not be surprised if in the future, sony is no longer in the race and Nintendo and Microsoft have become relative equals. But for now only time will tell for sure.
 

Bokracroc

Bokra, come out to pla-ay
Preyfar said:
Span_Wolf said:
Since when did Resistance: Fall of Man stop being a reason to pick up a PS3?
Resistance is a good game (although, I think it has the single worst "weapon zoom" mode of any FPS I have ever seen), but it's no reason to buy a PS3. One single $60 game can not justify the $600 price tag (soon to be $500 - again, for the second time).
Or if in Australia, $100 for the game and $1000 for the console.
 

Bokracroc

Bokra, come out to pla-ay
$1000 AUD converts to $839.455 USD

Oh yeah, we got less features too and don't forget that we also get passed over for games quite often.
 

Span_Wolf

Member
Foxstar said:
Span_Wolf said:
psion said:
The story I'm getting from Gamespy is that Lair was a good idea that just went horribly, horribly wrong. It has to be one of the lowest ranked games they reviewed for next gen. If you REALLY want a reason to get a PS3, I recommend waiting for Haze to finish up. If it lives up to what Free Radical is planning, it will be a sweet spin on traditional FPS game play. However, with the Timesplitter series, Free Radical seems to have a better track record then Factor 5.
Since when did Resistance: Fall of Man stop being a reason to pick up a PS3?

Since Bioshock kicked it's head in for best single player FPS and Halo 3 deploys in two weeks to double tap it in between the eyes. Or for the people who you know, don't give a shit about FPS's, maybe it's never been a reason?
Ungh.. I forgot that all games any genre are exactly the same and come marching out of a machine that creates them to be identical so that they may be easily measured up against eachother.

There is absolutely NO comparison between BS and RFOM. Bioshock may be one of the best games ever made, but Resistance kicks the fucking shit out of it in plenty of areas. Not that I'd compare the two, but you started this dance not I.
 

psion

Member
Summercat said:
Psion, I disagree with some of those games as being great games worthy of worship. But others like 'em. Enough others worship 'em for me to count on a list as games in a series that either kept up the exceptional levels of expectation of the first, or just kept getting better.

Fallout is, in my mind, the quintessel turn based isometric RPG. Ever. Beats out Baldr's Gate 1 and 2, beats out any Diablo, beats out everything. The ONLY game that comes close is Arcanum, but that's not balanced (Magic >>>>> Technology)

Fallout 2 has a tighter code and system, as gameplay wise, is a bit better, but I rate it lower than 1 due to... all sorts of anachronistic things. I felt the writing was sub-par compared to 1. But others liked it as much, if not better.

I'm not really comparing apples to oranges. I'm not really saying anything about the dev teams behind the games.

Someone tried to make the point that you can only expect things of 'awesome' level once in a long while, and usually not in succession.

All I tried to do is prove that lightning can strike multiple times. It doesn't always (Master of Orion 2 vs 3... heheh, and the lead designer for 3 is my boss now), but it can happen (Warcraft / Starcraft / Diablo).

As for me, I care little about graphics anyhow =D

In all fairness, you did ask and I did admit I didn't play most of those games (although Freelancer looks like a worthy prize for some bargain hunting.) You asked and I gave my opinion based on on what I have.
I admit that yes, lighting does strike twice and sometimes even many more times (King's Quest series for example.) However, in the grand, overarching super library of video games that stretches back to the dawn of the hobby and covers releases from around the world... It's not that common and is more often then not a case of developers not getting ahead of themselves, not getting greedy, and physically sitting down and saying "Okay, this is what we did right in the first game, now what can we do to keep the same kind of magic in Game II: The Sequel."
Blizzard demonstrated these traits pretty well up until WoW, which was a questionable move in my mind, and Interplay was doing a good job until something happened to break the money machine and some jerk pulled a Enron (which is becoming evident by the amount of legal red tape that's surrounding their closure.)
Which, trying to get back to the original topic, is why I'm interested in Haze. It's being made by the folks who gave us the Time Splitters series which I was pretty impressed with overall so yeah, I think Free Radical has some good mojo going.

Span_Wolf said:
Ungh.. I forgot that all games any genre are exactly the same and come marching out of a machine that creates them to be identical so that they may be easily measured up against eachother.

There is absolutely NO comparison between BS and RFOM. Bioshock may be one of the best games ever made, but Resistance kicks the fucking shit out of it in plenty of areas. Not that I'd compare the two, but you started this dance not I.

As I said, comparing Bioshock to R:FOM is like comparing Citizen Kane to the Terminator movies. Citizen Kane is a art film, the Terminator series is just plain great for those who want to see stuff blown up.
 

Span_Wolf

Member
My post wasn't directed at you Psion, as you're basically saying the same thing as I am.
 

Dragoneer

Site Developer
Site Director
Administrator
Summercat said:
Fallout 2 has a tighter code and system, as gameplay wise, is a bit better, but I rate it lower than 1 due to... all sorts of anachronistic things. I felt the writing was sub-par compared to 1. But others liked it as much, if not better.
Having played and finished both Fallouts over a dozen times each (yes, each - no kidding) they are two completely different games. The main problem with Fallout 2 was that storyline was, as you said, weak. Fallout had a serious storyline that was occasionally intertwined with a bit of dark comedy (e.g, Harold). From the start, Fallout 2 was much more light hearted and comedic, and didn't take itself as seriously. The humoristic aspects, instead of being subtle, were now in your face and unavoidable.

Worse, Fallout 2 had the same exact plot as Fallout. Replace the Super Mutant Army with the Enclave, replace the Master with the President, replace the Lieutenant with Frank Horrigan... the exact same thing and the exact same actions were being taken place by both villians. Exactly. The biggest differenced was they looked different.

Sub-quests aside, there was little difference. The new character models and animations for Fallout 2 were painfully different than those from Fallout 1. Some were good, some where just plain out TERRIBLE (see the guards in New Reno - their art style/animation looked completely different from the rest of the game, and in a bad way).

And that was Fallout 2's second greatest problem.
 

psion

Member
Span_Wolf said:
My post wasn't directed at you Psion, as you're basically saying the same thing as I am.

I know, I'm reaffirming what you said as the person you WERE talking to tends to have a bit of a listening problem on occasion.
 

Bokracroc

Bokra, come out to pla-ay
Preyfar said:
Sub-quests aside, there was little difference. The new character models and animations for Fallout 2 were painfully different than those from Fallout 1. Some were good, some where just plain out TERRIBLE (see the guards in New Reno - their art style/animation looked completely different from the rest of the game, and in a bad way).

If you mean the huge arse 20's Mobster looking guys out the front of the Casinos, I think that was kinda of the point.
They're stiff, huge, tight, bad-arse stereotyped bad-guys. They weren't your normal goon.
But in the end they still got Head-shotted with the .233 Pistol like everyone else.
 

WolfoxOkamichan

Luffs Buff Wuffs
Foxstar said:
WolfoxOkamichan said:
Must I hear another Lair bashing?

THE CONTROLS AREN'T SUPPOSED TO BE A QUICK MOVEMENT, DAMMIT! It's been proven a lot. You must be smooth with the control.

Oh and the PSP is catching up. I <3 Jeanne d'Arc.

No wonder furries don't know good furries in video games aside from Sonic and Star Fox. They don't have a wide library. <_______<

First, off, what the hell do furries have to do with anything? The Dragons in Lair are not like the dragons in Eragon. Stop labling everything with a anthro character in it a furry game, christsakes.

Second, do you OWN a PS3? Do you OWN Lair? I do and it controls like crap. People can provide flak for Factor 5 all damn day, but at the end, Lair plays JUST like Rouge Squadron, minus a Hoth level and a Death Star. The sad thing is, it doesn't play as good. Big old flying lizard or not, the damn thing controls like a bus, a bus with two broken axels and for a game that costs 60 dollars in this day and age, that's unforgiveable. Factor 5 is ending up kind of like Rare, a one/two trick pony that people swore were gonna do fantastic things once they were no longer Nintendo 2nd party devs. So far Rare has only just -barely- warreneted itself with Viva Pinata. Barely.

When a game released for the Xbox back in 2002 remains the premeir dragon combat game, something's wrong, yet hugely funny.

I've played Lair in a rental and tried the smooth suggestion. It worked. Really, it's something a lot of people don't know.

And I mentioned furries because of their limited knowledge of furry games. That's nothing to do with the topic, but I just want to point it out.

And EWWWW ERAGON. <_<
 

Stratelier

Well-Known Member
I've played Lair in a rental and tried the smooth suggestion. It worked. Really, it's something a lot of people don't know.
But there's the problem, "a lot people don't know". Good game design must accommodate for all playing styles, not just one. You can't tell people how the game is supposed to be played, you have to let them figure it out themselves, and in the meantime keep the game from doing anything entirely crazy or counter-intuitive (in their opinion, not yours):

themocaw said:
I did just that. I did a smooth turn of the controller to the right, and the game picked it up as a boost. I did a smooth turn of the controller to the left, and the game picked it up as a boost.
Y'know, stuff like that. This is tantamount to a racing game where if you tilt the analog stick all the way to its limit, it triggers a turbo boost. How many people lean the analog stick completely left or right while making a turn in a hot race? Everyone. How many people would listen to someone saying "you can't play the game like that, you need to be smoother and not tilt the stick so far"? Nobody.

Different players have different reflexes, but good game design must react to both in the same way. The problem here IMHO, is that Factor 5 tried to too much with the motion sensitivity. They tried to simultaneously integrate two different functions (steering and boost) onto an input that can only perform one of them at a time. If motion sensitivity was used exclusively for steering your dragon, and the speed-boost mapped to a damned button instead then this certainly would never have been an issue to begin with; you could snap the controller any which way you wanted and your dragon's ten tons of body mass would average out those quick snaps out into a smooth motion for you.

Or if Factor 5 had at least raised the threshold for detecting a boost to the point where you need to break a window in order to get one....

For comparison, what happens in a racing game if you snap the analog stick in one direction then back very fast? If you're driving a heavy car, nothing.

themocaw said:
[Sony has] gone so far as to send reviewers who gave it a bad review a "Lair Reviewer's Guide" telling them that they did the review wrong and were playing the game incorrectly.

...Same argument applies here. Sony can't dictate how a game "should" be reviewed, the reviewers can evaluate the game whatever angle they want to (for comparison, GamePro ranked Warhawk pretty high, but PSM gave it flak for not having a single player mode and for the titular vehicles getting shot down too easily by ground based weaponry) and if the game doesn't hold up to the reviewer's particular style of play, that's bad design.
 

Bokracroc

Bokra, come out to pla-ay
WolfoxOkamichan said:
I've played Lair in a rental and tried the smooth suggestion. It worked. Really, it's something a lot of people don't know.

And I mentioned furries because of their limited knowledge of furry games. That's nothing to do with the topic, but I just want to point it out.

And EWWWW ERAGON.
<_<
The GBA version has good (Well better than all the others. It's RPG).

Stratadrake said:
themocaw said:
I did just that. I did a smooth turn of the controller to the right, and the game picked it up as a boost. I did a smooth turn of the controller to the left, and the game picked it up as a boost.
Y'know, stuff like that. This is tantamount to a racing game where if you tilt the analog stick all the way to its limit, it triggers a turbo boost. How many people lean the analog stick completely left or right while making a turn in a hot race? Everyone. How many people would listen to someone saying "you can't play the game like that, you need to be smoother and not tilt the stick so far"? Nobody.

lawl Racing sims
 
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