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SSBM: Competitive or Casual?

BloodYoshi

Member
This is a topic that's struck up a lot of controversy with people I know. What I'm asking is your opinion on people who use advanced play techniques in Super Smash Bros. Melee(such as wavedashing and variants of it). Some people argue that the game is being played improperly by exploiting glitches, and refuse to use such techniques. The other side, which is the more competitive community, exploits it because it's there and it makes them better.

What do you think?
 
I'm competitive without using wavedashes and such....

Basically, I won't go to a competition...ever, but I can pwn all of my friends and pretty much anyone else who I play; I like to battle the CPUs to get better, etc, but for pride only.
 

Kattywampus

Miss Wampus, if you're nasty
I think I hate it when people refuse to play with items.
The items are what make it not a "fighting game" in the traditional sense.
I say if you're gonna play in a tourney, you should play the way it's supposed to be played. Screw the "no items and 5 stages aren't allowed" crap.
 

Earn_BlackHeart

New Member
I play just for the heck of it, and major pwnage... X3 But then again, depends... I'm not all hardcore tournaments and such.
 

Foxstar

lol reggin
SSBM would -not- be the utter force it is in tornys if it wasn't built like it was and people didn't use wavedashing. I've played in tornys, but it's rare to match up to those people. I've just seen some Peach/Zelda combos that make me wonder if I've played at all, I've lost so fast.
 

nobuyuki

Member
I've never played ssbm outside a casual setting, but I'm appalled to hear that there are weird retarded rules imposed by people such as disabling the items (wtf? working in random situations is 99% of the fun of the game)!!! One of my cousins plays with items disabled and I refuse to play the game with him at parties because of this.

what the flying fridge is wavedashing and why does it sound like a move devised by people who think exploits make a game better
 

BloodYoshi

Member
I've never played ssbm outside a casual setting, but I'm appalled to hear that there are weird retarded rules imposed by people such as disabling the items (wtf? working in random situations is 99% of the fun of the game)!!! One of my cousins plays with items disabled and I refuse to play the game with him at parties because of this.

Disabling items and certain stages is only done in tourneys so that the better player doesn't get shafted just because his opponent managed to pick up a Star or Hammer or something. When you're playing for money, you don't want to lose because of cheap means. It's all skill at the tourney level.
 

Kiniel

Member
WelcomeTheCollapse said:
I'm competitive without using wavedashes and such....

Basically, I won't go to a competition...ever, but I can pwn all of my friends and pretty much anyone else who I play; I like to battle the CPUs to get better, etc, but for pride only.

Agreed.  I can't wavedash to save my life anyway.  I'm just competitive by nature, so any time I play any game with anyone it becomes competitive, though I have been known to call people out if I hear anyone say "oh, so-and-so is really good at Smash."  It's actually amazing how some people really enjoy the idea of getting called out (well, until I PWN them.  Heh.). :)

Kattywampus said:
I think I hate it when people refuse to play with items.
The items are what make it not a "fighting game" in the traditional sense.  
I say if you're gonna play in a tourney, you should play the way it's supposed to be played.  Screw the "no items and 5 stages aren't allowed" crap.

Heh, I'm guilty of being a no-items junkie.  It isn't so much that I don't like them (used them all the time in the original), it's more that the people I used to play with who were really good never played with them, so I sort of learned the game without items.  I agree that items add a variety to the game you just can't get elsewhere.  But you have to admit, there's some appeal to a sheer character on character duel as a test of skill.  It's really annoying if you're having a true 1-on-1 face-off for bragging rights, you manage to get a huge advantage, but then your opponent stages an amazing comeback purely because they happen to get a couple heart containers, a hammer, and a star in rapid succession.  Randomness is not a good thing in personal duels.
*Shrug*  In the end, though, I say just leave it at individual preference and to each his or her own.

I do hate it when people try to rule out stages.  Granted, some stages I really don't like, but I can play them all just the same.  That said, I'd be lying if I said I didn't concede when people want to exclude Icicle Mountain or Big Blue.  Rainbow Cruise and Poke Floats, though?  Never will anyone eliminate those if I'm playing.  (Seriously, get good at poke floats.  If you can memorize the float pattern you have every match there essentially won.)
 
The last time I played, was in a 16 person tournament where I won a 2nd place prize of a Wavebird.

Kinda sad, since I'm horrible at the game. I can't wavedash or dodge if I had to, but I'm loving the enviromental hazards. You wouldn't believe how fun it is to throw someone in the water then keep hitting them with bombs (samus style) to the point where they kill themselves out of fustration...
 

BloodYoshi

Member
Rainbow Cruise and Poke Floats, though? Never will anyone eliminate those if I'm playing. (Seriously, get good at poke floats. If you can memorize the float pattern you have every match there essentially won.)

Rainbow Cruise and Poke Floats are not banned from tournament play, so if anyone tries to ban those stages with you, you can mention to them that those stages are perfectly fair.
 

Visimar

Member
I'm a little bit of both. Enough advanced know-how to have a chance in real fights, but I hate making any opponents feel inferior. I also hate the tier system they have out. =/
 

OtakuMan

New Member
Not with the way people have been playing it and some of the things I've seen.

SSBM plays very well with the casual and hardcore player scene. It all depends on how you set the game up.

Most tourneys I see are itemless and one on one. This means that the fighting is mostly in the hands of their character's choice and how well they can smack the other fighter off the screen said number of times.

This brings out some especially interesting tricks, counters, dodges, and other techniques that most casual players ignore.

HOWEVER, once you bring more than 2 players and items into the equation, then you get yourself something where a simple DK Hammer can send a seasoned pro who can dodge a dime... flying.

Frankly, I think it's both. It's all in how you set the game. (What will those geniuses at Nintendo think of next? Oh right... BRAWL! :D)

~Otaku-Man
 

nobuyuki

Member
lol banned stages and "fairness"..... sorry, I do think that removing items and banning stages does get rid of the randomness and therefore the "fairness" of the game. Poker and blackjack are games of skill, too, but it's considered unfair to count cards -- that may not be the best analogy but what IS proper is that random chance occurs just as likely for you as it does the other guy. Removing that element basically limits the game to characters with 3 special moves and a few standard moves between each character -- quite bland and to be quite honest not worthy of any serious play.

The removal of items is quite an arbitrary decision for serious tournaments to have made and it somewhat disgusts me that it is such a widespread, accepted, and rationalized practice from what you guys are implying. Adjusting for changing environments created by items is a skill that seems to be entirely glossed over by that decision.
 
J

Jelly

Guest
Yeah, I think it seems to be fairly interesting, as well when you get two experienced players throwing items back and forth. It reminds me of Street Fighter III - how quickly can you improvise and reflect the attack, or in the heat of the moment do you just back down (because if you fail, that supremely screws you) and choose to lessen the blow? I tend to agree that SSBM gets pretty bland without items and the unusual environments, there are plenty of other 2d fighters that have far more strategic moves and systems to keep it from getting boring.
 

Rhainor

Rawr.
IIRC, it's a technique that exploits a combination of dodging, blocking, and something else to let one move relatively fast while being nearly impossible to hit.

I could be way off, though. Someone wanna clarify this please?
 

Visimar

Member
Lvx said:
Umm.......

What's "Wavedashing"?

It's air dodging diagonally into the ground when A) you just start to make a jump or B) you are about to land. You'll notice that the character starts sliding along the ground. Luigi, with his really bad traction, is a perfect example of this.
 

Kingdom Hearts Keeper

Also Known As: Kingdom Xathers & Anso-Rez
Visimar said:
Lvx said:
Umm.......

What's "Wavedashing"?

It's air dodging diagonally into the ground when A) you just start to make a jump or B) you are about to land. You'll notice that the character starts sliding along the ground. Luigi, with his really bad traction, is a perfect example of this.

*nods in agreement*

Did you guys discuss any recovery tactics? You know, like using moves other than Up-B to get back on to the platform?
Pikachu and Luigi are good examples. Any others?
 

nobuyuki

Member
Samus and Link are able to latch onto the edge of a platform with their throw, but you have to time it JUST RIGHT to be able to hit that. Most of the time, it's safer to take your chances with their up+B special.
 

Visimar

Member
It's easier for Samus though, because she can just bomb jump (down + b and letting the bomb hit you) herself into position and latch onto the stage, not to mention the bomb jump itself is a very nice recovery technique.
 

Razzor

Member
Okay I don't even know what wavedashing is and I beat my friends at it all the time. With Samus, Ganondorf and Roy I am undefeated.
I beat my friends all the time, and I have recovery techniques for just about all my characters.
But most of them involve using up-B... Though I have a decent grasp of the bomb jump for samus, although I don't need it, she rarely does.
 

Naglfar52

New Member
I like both. Competitive takes my fancy more, though. The rules are set out so the game is a pure test of skill: you can't rely on luck, you can only rely on yourself. It's most fun like that, and it's kind of annoying should you lose by way of chance.

And why do people get angry at advanced technique users? It just adds more possibilities, unlocks more potential in players, and can make the game so much more fun. If you're in a tournament, more or less for fun, what would you enjoy more than having some of the best skills in the world, going one-on-one, no-holds-barred against another pro? I can't think of any more exciting gaming situation, myself.

In the end... one's preference of competitive or casual depends on the actual competitiveness of the person playing.
 

nobuyuki

Member
why do competitive players seeing it to losing by chance? If you had the skills you would be able to accommodate for random variants without it screwing up your entire game. I see some people get overly competitive with the game and just hate any idea of random variants screwing up their game because they can't react to it fast enough or whatever, and chock it up to luck way more than what is actually the case. There is a skill in technique and then there is a skill in strategy and fast wits, and so far it sounds like "competitive" play seems to favor the former at the expense of the latter. My brother used to do DDR tournaments, and what I've noticed is that the same concept applies -- back in the day there were tournaments where one person picked the song and the other, the ailments, but because certain very competitive players couldn't win unless the game was just a certain way, you've seen things like ailments go to the wayside. (none of that of course really matters if you somehow memorize every step)

What I enjoy the most about the game is fun, and the idea that when I go into it my challenge may be much greater to me than it was the last match. That seems to be what true sportsmanship is about.... and screw competitiveness if it comes at the expense of good sportsmanship. Assholes can have their little competitions and get angry over something like part of the stage killing you prematurely or a slippery grip bar or whatever stupid shit it is that's making them into brats who don't just want a good clean fight.


edit: I don't know if I mentioned it in this thread earlier or not, but it is of my opinion, that in ssbm, because random chance is equally random to all players, that there is no inherit "unfairness" to it whatsoever. Your chances of getting a lucky (or bad) break are exactly the same as everyone else's. Skill in technique can take you only so far in the game the way it's meant to be played. You must also have skill in changing environments, and there seems to be a trend with competitive players that they do not like this unknown vector from which they could potentially not win.
 
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