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Stiff Joints

ShaneDog

ShaneDog
The only way someone's posture would be that straight is if they were standing at attention, a la soldier style. Was this your intention?

If you have a full length mirror, go stand in front of it casually. You'll see that you won't be standing completely straight, even without a slouch. Arms also don't usually fall straight down, unless - as mentioned above - they are standing at attention. It's a bit hard to illustrate this from the side, so perhaps you should start drawing from different angles. The two images we've seen from you so far are side views, and even under the best of circumstances their silhouettes will come off as a bit boring.

A very valid point, however you are almost totally correct, you see, as I previously mentioned "And yes I am aware that the pose is still a stiff pose, but I wanted to make it somewhat relevant to the first concept of Shane." I figured it would be easier to compare the two if they were rather similar. So one could say standing at attention was 'essentially' the goal. I will, for everyone, try a much different pose if you guys would be so kind as to permit me some time, I am swamped with school right now and may take a while. Thank you for your contribution! :D You guys are all so great!
 

Jw

PINEAPPLE ACCOMPLISHED
Well, to be honest, I've tried to show you all I can and have given you an artistic representation of a spine.

So here is a medical model of the spine:


Notice the concave lumbar area and the convex curvature of the thoracic vertebrae. Note the lack of kyphotic or lordotic deformities. Notice the inherent strength of the curves and how well it would distribute the weight of the body downwards into the feet. Notice how a straight spine would compress the spinal nerves extending intervertebraically to the rest of the body and shift weight downwards to cause excessive wear and tear on the patella and menisci of the knees. I would assume a client would have some severe back pains if the spine was straight and would likely cause muscle spasms and cellular destruction that would lead to an influx of electrolytes to the bloodstream, causing all sorts of other problems.

Art does not equal science, but I could give all those reasons up there why a straight spine could be detrimental. And there are plenty more where that came from.

Now, you can take the opinion of someone with years and years of practice in drawing figures and is a healthcare personnel in 4 year university training or ignore it. The choice is yours.
 
Z

Zoetrope

Guest
Here is kind of an example of what JW is talking about:





His was a little exaggerated looking because he followed the curve of the back, not the spine. From these pictures you can see that the skeleton does have a curve in the spine and that the back(faintly drawn in) has more of a curve. The spine and back do not go straight, there is always a dip and you will notice that both of the skeleton examples are kind of slouching(leaning forward a little). Posturing can be a big in making figures look more natural and less stiff.
 

Arshes Nei

Masticates in Public
Z

Zoetrope

Guest
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Arshes Nei

Masticates in Public
The one that appears to be Albinus.

The Xray one wasn't there when I looked at the thread.
 
Z

Zoetrope

Guest
The one that appears to be Albinus.

The Xray one wasn't there when I looked at the thread.

Strange, because I uploaded them at the same time...

;) That would be artistic interpretation then. (Though I really don't see a problem with it, and it could be the angle that is bothering you. ) Point out the flaws in the anatomy book is one of my favourite games. There was one where the artists drew the dudes eyes on different planes and I joked at it and someone snapped at me. Some people consider anatomy books to be 'perfect' and they really aren't. There will always be flaws.
 

Arshes Nei

Masticates in Public
Strange, because I uploaded them at the same time...

;) That would be artistic interpretation then. (Though I really don't see a problem with it, and it could be the angle that is bothering you. ) Point out the flaws in the anatomy book is one of my favourite games. There was one where the artists drew the dudes eyes on different planes and I joked at it and someone snapped at me. Some people consider anatomy books to be 'perfect' and they really aren't. There will always be flaws.

The reason why the neck is important actually goes in with the problem of this thread "Stiff Joints"

Common mistakes by artists is to not put the neck at an angle, it is set at an angle because it's in balance with the rhythm of the spine.

Our body has a natural rhythm to keep the body balance, and finding these balances keep your anatomy from looking stiff. It's like skiing, you kinda ski in a pattern to go down the slopes.

Good artists to learn this from is George Bridgmans (Life Drawing - please get his green book and not the "Complete" series which is hacked up).

Ron Lemen, Kevin Chen and Michael Hampton

http://analyticalfiguresp08.blogspot.com/

http://longposefiguresp08.blogspot.com/2008/03/week-2-shape-lay-in-notes.html

http://figuredrawing.info/

http://www.conceptart.org/forums/showthread.php?t=26748

http://www.characterdesigns.com/index.php?sitepage=tutorials

To be fair, these illustrations - or more accurately ENGRAVINGS are quite old. So some mistakes are actually bound to happen when cataloging medical studies. Vesalius, and Albinus were the two artists in these illustrations. One I know for sure, Albinus was in the medical field. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bernhard_Siegfried_Albinus.

However, given the circumstances and resources we have today, and a lot due to these artists we can learn a lot about anatomy.

That being said - it should be asked if you really need to learn the skeleton to understand anatomy. Not really but it does help a lot. Getting the major basic forms will help you more. Sturdy foundation leads to helping you determine what details are necessary.

One artist I'd advise looking up is Luca Cambiaso http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Luca_Cambiasi

Specially look how he breaks down the form into cubes

http://www.realcolorwheel.com/YaBBattachments/Luca_Cambiaso.jpg


http://christopherdavison.com/drawingseeing/wp-content/uploads/2010/04/luca_cambiaso_000.jpg
 

Zydala

Kisses for everyone!
All of this is extremely important and interesting information! Yes, the spine is indeed pretty curved and that creates a very curved backside. A good example of why it's helpful to know the real anatomy first (from the bones up) and know how to use shapes to your advantage and not be confined by them (a la only learning from tutorials.)
 

Jw

PINEAPPLE ACCOMPLISHED
Thanks Arshes for the links, they're really interesting and ought to help out anyone ready to learn a bit of anatomy.

I've been looking into some of the "false anatomists" like Galen that based his work on other animals for human antomy to help learn what is not realistic. In other words, it's easier to learn about what something is by learning what it is not. Like the air, you know it has no color, no smell (generally), no taste and no form. But in a way it's defined by what it is not-- a container, the ground, or if it is inside a bubble, it is defined by the water around it. Galen's work is essential to some of the false medical practices of the past, and if you look at the organs there are a bunch of hollow gaps inside the body, like the lungs and liver are raisins. It's kinda funny to me with my medical training, because I've seen surgeries and know the entire torso is PACKED with the organs, little space around. It was an estimation of using the sizes of pig and ape's organs inside the human body and not scaled to size. And this was the foundation of medical practice in the Western world for many, MANY centuries before it was overturned just in the past couple centuries.

And what's more fascinating is looking at Leonardo daVinci's anatomy studies as he gained skills and they went from Galen-based to practical anatomy tha became the basis for medical drawings centuries after his artwork was rediscovered in the 1800s.

I think Albinus was the man that drew the skeleton through a series of frames where they were position with exotic animals and gradually more and more flesh on the bones. Really neat stuff to look at.
 
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Arshes Nei

Masticates in Public
Here is a link to the covers of the 4 Bridgman books I recommend.


http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_HUH6nLz3udA/TT8PKFVZQLI/AAAAAAAAAEw/b2dq7TU80rc/s1600/bridgman2.jpg

Start with Life Drawing
Then go to Constructive Anatomy
You can work with the Human Machine or 100 Hands in either order.

One word of caution, is as useful as Human Machine is about mechanics of anatomy, the reprint is really blah.

Bridgman uses language that will also confuse readers due to older times.
 

FireFeathers

Mr. Red Flag
I emphasize the importance of help, solely because, in coming to Palette Town, I was expecting it to be a place in which the tried and tested professionals (both in terms of those who make money and those who are simply experienced) help those who are new and share their experience and advice. I cannot thank you all enough for that! But returning to what I was saying, the reason for which I emphasize "help" is because there are obviously some in palette town who are great artists and who most likely have a lot of experience and wisdom to share with others, but who choose instead to keep that knowledge locked up and would rather spit on those below them rather than give advice or criticism and justify that criticism by sharing knowledge for improvement. I don't believe what I have just said could be called subtle, but I just wanted to express my appreciation for those who actually help like yourself, while dismissing others in a sense that hopefully says "If you can't give real help, gtfo...please ;) "

Your pretentious dickish-ness is showing. Let's take myself out of this equation for the time being. People here have given you great advice. You're spitting on them for not actually taking it. Your following sketches were none more progressed, after people greatly took thier time to dissect your issues and help you with them. And you didn't change a thing! What did you do? Y'a crabbed about me, of all people, like the world is full of everyone who is just waiting to help you out, then you bitched at these people. Aaaand that's why I didn't help you in the first place. It's blatantly obvious to spot a person who is willing to change and progress, and those who are not. From the response of your post an unnecessary and random posts afterwards, i'm fairly sure you're not used to this response.

You want advice? Take these people's advices and actually change the way you draw things for the better. Don't give lip about spines, don't crab about your ipad and it's techniques. Their artistic skill is > yours. I frankly find it pretty insulting to the people that actually helped you that you think my advice is worth any more then theirs.
 

Jw

PINEAPPLE ACCOMPLISHED
OP is missing?

Interesting. And we just got a lot of this cool information around here specific to his needs. Funny how this goes.

Arthullu has claimed another soul
 

Taralack

Hit 'em right between the eyes
Give him time :p
 

Frokusblakah

Drunk Fox
OP is missing?

Interesting. And we just got a lot of this cool information around here specific to his needs. Funny how this goes.

Arthullu has claimed another soul

Yeah, I actually followed a bunch of the info, haha. xD

I need to dig up my bridgeman book now. >_> Though I believe I have the "one to be avoided".
 

ShaneDog

ShaneDog
Well, to be honest, I've tried to show you all I can and have given you an artistic representation of a spine.

So here is a medical model of the spine:


Notice the concave lumbar area and the convex curvature of the thoracic vertebrae. Note the lack of kyphotic or lordotic deformities. Notice the inherent strength of the curves and how well it would distribute the weight of the body downwards into the feet. Notice how a straight spine would compress the spinal nerves extending intervertebraically to the rest of the body and shift weight downwards to cause excessive wear and tear on the patella and menisci of the knees. I would assume a client would have some severe back pains if the spine was straight and would likely cause muscle spasms and cellular destruction that would lead to an influx of electrolytes to the bloodstream, causing all sorts of other problems.

Art does not equal science, but I could give all those reasons up there why a straight spine could be detrimental. And there are plenty more where that came from.

Now, you can take the opinion of someone with years and years of practice in drawing figures and is a healthcare personnel in 4 year university training or ignore it. The choice is yours.

There is no need to get miffed. Your medical picture of a spine is of course spot on and exactly what a spine should be. It's just the spine you gave your character in the second line drawing is so far from the medical picture that I simply had to exclaim the (literally) painful difference. And yes I do realize the implications of a completely straight spine, although thank you for the unnecessary brutal schooling. However if would appear that while the spine I have given my character is not as curvy as the medical spine shown, it would appear as though everyone simply enjoys drawing a straight spine onto my character. I would figure the curvature in the back would suggest a spine that while most likely stiff, is not straight as a broomstick. Referencing to my previous comment it would appear that everyone is placing 25 lbs of flesh to the right of where that broomstick spine would be rather than putting a proper spine in the space of that unrealistic mass of assumed flesh. I will certainly put your advice and especially the medical spine picture as well as observations from real life into my future work but really I must say that line drawing you gave was rather contorted. Again my sincerest apologies for being so difficult, but your medical spine picture has managed to effectively get your point across and so your work has been successful. Thank you again!
 
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ShaneDog

ShaneDog
Here is kind of an example of what JW is talking about:





His was a little exaggerated looking because he followed the curve of the back, not the spine. From these pictures you can see that the skeleton does have a curve in the spine and that the back(faintly drawn in) has more of a curve. The spine and back do not go straight, there is always a dip and you will notice that both of the skeleton examples are kind of slouching(leaning forward a little). Posturing can be a big in making figures look more natural and less stiff.

Thank you very much, great examples, the slouch will be used in the future. Very much appreciated!
 

ShaneDog

ShaneDog
The reason why the neck is important actually goes in with the problem of this thread "Stiff Joints"

Common mistakes by artists is to not put the neck at an angle, it is set at an angle because it's in balance with the rhythm of the spine.

Our body has a natural rhythm to keep the body balance, and finding these balances keep your anatomy from looking stiff. It's like skiing, you kinda ski in a pattern to go down the slopes.

Good artists to learn this from is George Bridgmans (Life Drawing - please get his green book and not the "Complete" series which is hacked up).

Ron Lemen, Kevin Chen and Michael Hampton

http://analyticalfiguresp08.blogspot.com/

http://longposefiguresp08.blogspot.com/2008/03/week-2-shape-lay-in-notes.html

http://figuredrawing.info/

http://www.conceptart.org/forums/showthread.php?t=26748

http://www.characterdesigns.com/index.php?sitepage=tutorials

To be fair, these illustrations - or more accurately ENGRAVINGS are quite old. So some mistakes are actually bound to happen when cataloging medical studies. Vesalius, and Albinus were the two artists in these illustrations. One I know for sure, Albinus was in the medical field. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bernhard_Siegfried_Albinus.

However, given the circumstances and resources we have today, and a lot due to these artists we can learn a lot about anatomy.

That being said - it should be asked if you really need to learn the skeleton to understand anatomy. Not really but it does help a lot. Getting the major basic forms will help you more. Sturdy foundation leads to helping you determine what details are necessary.

One artist I'd advise looking up is Luca Cambiaso http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Luca_Cambiasi

Specially look how he breaks down the form into cubes

http://www.realcolorwheel.com/YaBBattachments/Luca_Cambiaso.jpg


http://christopherdavison.com/drawingseeing/wp-content/uploads/2010/04/luca_cambiaso_000.jpg

Thank you very much :) Very good references!
 

Zydala

Kisses for everyone!
I think JW's back was less the curve of the spine and more the curve of the back, and while it looks a tad exaggerated, it still looks much less stiff and more 'pleasing' and 'correct' to the eye. His points are still something you'll want to take in, whether or not they're 100% accurate. (but it's another reason you want to look to life instead of other's art for the best examples!)

Just want to clear that up.
 

ShaneDog

ShaneDog
Your pretentious dickish-ness is showing. Let's take myself out of this equation for the time being. People here have given you great advice. You're spitting on them for not actually taking it. Your following sketches were none more progressed, after people greatly took thier time to dissect your issues and help you with them. And you didn't change a thing! What did you do? Y'a crabbed about me, of all people, like the world is full of everyone who is just waiting to help you out, then you bitched at these people. Aaaand that's why I didn't help you in the first place. It's blatantly obvious to spot a person who is willing to change and progress, and those who are not. From the response of your post an unnecessary and random posts afterwards, i'm fairly sure you're not used to this response.

You want advice? Take these people's advices and actually change the way you draw things for the better. Don't give lip about spines, don't crab about your ipad and it's techniques. Their artistic skill is > yours. I frankly find it pretty insulting to the people that actually helped you that you think my advice is worth any more then theirs.

I find it amazing that you said you wanted to take yourself out of the equation and then you went ahead and included yourself into the equation, but that's besides the point. I also find it amazing at how you enjoy antagonizing me. First you wrongly antagonize me about my grocery list make pretentious, idiotic, and excluding assumptions based on zero fact. I believe the purpose of asking for tutorials on palette town is to receive help, not to be shut down by others (yourself) as a red flag based on zero evidence. You dont know me, that's just silly assumptions you make about me because of previous negative experiences with other people who fit that description and so now you label others that way immediately when you have the opportunity to malign their words into supposed red flags) Then you proceed to antagonize me here as well. I'm sorry if you feel my sketches haven't progressed in your eyes, although I did spot another thread on here about something else which I sort of fixated on as opposed to the spine problem. I swear that will not happen again, but progress is subjective. I will have you know that I am constantly listening to the advice of others and while it may not have shown in one sketch that does not mean I am not listening. As for when I evidently bruised your emotions by crabbing about you, for that I am sorry, but you really did not offer any help at all when compared to the others, after all, being told I'm a supposed "red flag" IS NOT going to help me draw better. So yes I did chose to "crab" about you of all people because you did not help, you simply assumed I was a red flag and labeled me (again, that IS NOT helpful no matter how much you may think it was). Secondly I did not bitch at those who actually helped me (nearly everyone but you). If you are referring to the comment on JW's second line drawing, I was simply stating that his example of a proper character's spine was rather contorted and so I requested a less exaggerated example. And as for that last bit in your first paragraph, that is just you antagonizing and ASSUMING again and again and again rather than helping, did you think this more recent post of yours was helpful in any way? Hell, no it wasn't. It is simply a longer version of what you did in your first post. I really don't know what you are doing in the tutorials and critiques section if you choose not to help people. Perhaps you are in it for the entertainment value in labelling others, I really don't know but I'm sure you will soon answer that question in long raging format. Finally I am taking advice otherwise I would have simply ditched this thread and no longer commented on it. I did not crab about my iPad, I simply explained that the advice one member had given me about strokes could not be applied to the drawing they were referencing to as it required a completely unrelated technique to draw. Again it is far from the perfect medium. And so I would take that poster's advice when drawing traditionally. I am very much aware that their artistic skill is greater than mine, for that is why I asked them advice. I certainly wouldn't ask someone who can't draw stick figures how to paint the mona lisa. So lets be serious, I obviously knew they were better at art as that's why I asked them for advice (duh). When did I ever say your advice was worth more than others? Oh it's quite the contrary, for you see, I disvalue your advice more than anyones. The others at least gave advice, you did not "mr red flag".

Now I would like to conclude with something my grade 7 english teacher taught us (really a brilliant teacher):

To ASSUME is to make an ASS of U and ME (But really you're more ASSU-ing than ASSUME-ing)

Thank you for your hatred, I'm sure you will continue to be cold and bitter towards me for quite a while but I hope I have cleared everything up so you can stop ASSU-ing!

To everyone else: I'm very sorry to anyone else about my attitude in this post but when someone calls you pretentious and dick-ish it is more than approriate to give him a taste of what Dick-ish might actually be like. I was simply clearing up some negative thoughts of his. And will probably create some more for him, unless he decides to leave this damn thread alone so it can be useful to myself and others rather than just be filled with his hatred of me.
 

ShaneDog

ShaneDog
I think JW's back was less the curve of the spine and more the curve of the back, and while it looks a tad exaggerated, it still looks much less stiff and more 'pleasing' and 'correct' to the eye. His points are still something you'll want to take in, whether or not they're 100% accurate. (but it's another reason you want to look to life instead of other's art for the best examples!)

Just want to clear that up.

Thank you, very insightful. I did not mean to make a commotion about that one spine but I suppose the damage is done and I thank you for clearing away the rubble. I will most certainly heed to that advice and to real life experience.

TO ALL THOSE WHO HAVE POSTED IN A HELPFUL MANNER I THANK YOU TREMENDOUSLY! BUT I WILL NO LONGER BE MONITORING THIS THREAD AS CLOSELY BECAUSE I MUST GO AND PUT ALL THIS ADVICE TO WORK. AGAIN THANK YOU. LETS HAVE THIS THREAD END CLEANLY RIGHT HERE AS I BELIEVE THE QUESTION HAS BEEN ANSWERED AND THIS WILL PROVE HELPFUL TO MANY.

I apologize for the above caps but I needed it to be noticeable. Again thank you all, you guys are what make the fandom, and especially the forum, great and should be proud of the help you bestow upon others and the great work you do. I can't express enough how much I love and respect you all! Keep up the good work!
 

FireFeathers

Mr. Red Flag
Length of initial "LONG RAGING POST response" 2 in, including spaces (i'll give that benefit to you) Length of totally not raging spaz post: 7.5 inches.

I think you've proved yourself as an ass effectively, though words, actions, and tremendous paragraphs. For the sake of irony, I'm gonna keep my sting short here.

Perhaps you are in it for the entertainment value in labelling others, I really don't know but I'm sure you will soon answer that question in long raging format

The irony here is so unbearably thick that this really sums it up. I know you've abandoned this thread like a disabled puppy, but I find it quite interesting that you don't think your hissy fit of a response here isn't kinda fulfilling my maligned prophecy of douchebaggery. And yes. I come to these threads to label others. I use Maligned -brand Labeler. (which the tags come in raging hot pink!) I keep all my labels in the giant label box and roll in labels like it's currency. YOUR LABELS ABOUT LABELS ARE LABELING MEEEE.

And that's Ms. Red Flag to you, D-bag.
 
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lrn2multi-quote.

Why has this been such a problem in here lately? Cripes.

And I'm glad that I came in here and gave this thread another look. One more name to add to my list of people to ignore when they come in asking for help, because it's obvious that I'll just be wasting my time.
 

Arshes Nei

Masticates in Public
If you spent as much time practicing as writing out long winded responses, you actually *might* improve as an artist.
 
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