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Stock Market Thread

TeenageAngst

Banned
Banned
I've already mentioned the amplification effect of fractional reserve banking on money created by the central bank.

Yes but you seem to think that both the government and independent market analysts are entirely ignorant of this fact. The government knows how fractional reserve systems work and they took the money multiplier into account *before* the quantitative easing occurred. We don't have skyrocketting inflation because banks are increasing their reserve requirements both because of increased regulation and because they're terrified to lend money. This has an inverse effect, thus for a while in spite of lots of money being thrown at the economy, the banks actually contracted the money supply.

0.25% Federal Reserve rates, quantitative easing, debt monetisation... where is the speculation? There is nothing to speculate here, inflation is baked into the cake, it's guaranteed.

Over the long term historical trend 2% is what we've been seeing. Anything below 5% is considered pretty okay. We have people speculating that the banks will suddenly release their reserves and cause another bubble, but this has yet to happen.

The peak gold price in 1980 was $850. Adjusted for inflation, that is $2,368.38 today. So while the media bang on about gold hitting all time highs in 'number' terms, in real money terms it's nowhere near its historical peak.

Adjusted for inflation in relation to what, exactly? RGDP? People who bang on about the gold standard tend to relate the value of a currency in comparison to gold.
 

Ricky

Well-Known Member
0.25% Federal Reserve rates, quantitative easing, debt monetisation... where is the speculation? There is nothing to speculate here, inflation is baked into the cake, it's guaranteed.

Well, yeah. Inflation is GOOD and it's what we want to happen with our type of economy. When I say "speculation" I'm talking about people buying anything with the notion that it will increase in value over time. That is ALWAYS speculating, no matter how sure you think you are.

Some would argue that it's under valued.

Indeed. It almost seems split 50/50 these days between the bulls and the bears (and you see this kind of volatility when that happens).

The peak gold price in 1980 was $850. Adjusted for inflation, that is $2,368.38 today. So while the media bang on about gold hitting all time highs in 'number' terms, in real money terms it's nowhere near its historical peak.

That sounds about right but you have to remember we almost almost hit 1900 so it's not *that* far off.

In all honesty I wouldn't have called the events in 1980 a bubble. Yes the price exploded, but when you look at the circumstances of the time it makes sense why. The world had just been forced off the gold standard and there was a mad rush to exchange worthless paper currency for the physical gold that once backed it. It sounds an alien concept today, but we have to remember the world had just left the gold standard and people still strongly associated it with money. What burst the "bubble" was panicking governments who placed a temporary ban on the buying of gold on the exchange, part of their inflation fighting measures to combat the fallout of the Nixon Shock. Needless to say, if you ban buying gold contracts and people can only sell; the price is going to fall off a cliff. And this burned a lot of people who had bought at a higher price, deterring people from wanting to consider gold over the following decades. An experience the present generation of investors are not burdened with.

It had more to do with rampant inflation at the time, which The Fed was able to subside by increasing interest rates (with the downside of losing jobs).

Granted, what's to stop the governments screwing everyone again? Quite frankly you cannot live your life based on how the government could screw you, especially when it comes to responding to threats on the horizon.

Look, not everyone is out to get you. That said, investing is tricky. It is always a gamble and in order to make a profit you need to do something others aren't. That's why I am not too thrilled about the idea of investing in stocks, at least right now. EVERYONE seems to be investing in stocks these days, up to the point where "investing" has become synonymous with the word stocks. There are other markets, such as emerging funds, but I'm not too sure how much of that is saturated at this point either.

People say you should invest with a diversified portfolio but if everyone is investing into diversified markets (let's assume 100% diversity by everyone) then nobody actually made any money. It would all just be inflation. It's not the government trying to screw everyone over. The government is seriously doing the best they can for everyone but there is still the harsh reality that in real life, not everyone can be the winner. That's just the way it goes.

If the Fed keeps pouring money into the economy, the end result will be the price of everything will go up. Not just the stock market, not just gold, everything. So I'm not sure why you think the Dow would receive special treatment, especially with the 2008 and 2010 crashes in recent memory. The stock market is pretty much entirely reliant on Fed magic money right now, something even the bottom of the barrel commenters on Fox News have admitted. That, along with gilts/bonds, are the biggest bubble threats right now. Not gold. The moment the free money stops, the stock market and this fake recovery is going to go boom. But if they don't stop pumping out all this money, then there is a real risk of the dollar dying. You cannot expand the currency supply into infinity and not expect hyperinflation, it doesn't matter who you are.

You can always assume inflation, in any case. Ever. Our economy depends on it. HYPERINFLATION is another story, and what you are saying is basically a doomsday scenario. If the stock market tanked that would do the opposite of what you are saying and there would be a DE-flation. Basically, all this money that existed at one point just evaporated into thin air. Luckily, we are able to prevent this or hyperinflation from happening using fractional reserve techniques. We are in America; this isn't Zimbabwe and however much you'd like to think there's some huge conspiracy there really isn't (well, aside from the banks making a shit ton of money off the whole thing).
 

ADF

Member
Sorry about the length of this response, but there is a lot to respond to.

Yes but you seem to think that both the government and independent market analysts are entirely ignorant of this fact. The government knows how fractional reserve systems work and they took the money multiplier into account *before* the quantitative easing occurred. We don't have skyrocketting inflation because banks are increasing their reserve requirements both because of increased regulation and because they're terrified to lend money. This has an inverse effect, thus for a while in spite of lots of money being thrown at the economy, the banks actually contracted the money supply.

That doesn't seem to stop governments from constantly criticising the banks for not doing enough to support businesses, in other words issuing more loans. The UK government has gone as far as creating new state owned banks, such as the green investment banks and the business investment bank, backed by taxpayer money in order to increase the credit supply. While it would be a shock if governments didn't understand how commercial banks amplify the supply of money, it wouldn't be too surprising given many politicians demonstrated that they don't even understand the difference between deficit and debt. I did say earlier in the thread that this money still has to enter circulation before it can create inflation, but we have to remember monetised deficit spending does enter circulation and is a inflationary risk.

Between inflation and deflation, our governments will side with inflation. As the biggest debtor they are the primary beneficiary of currency debasement, plus they believe cheaper currency makes their economy more competitive. That and Ben Bernanke, claiming to be a scholar of the great depression, has made it his personal mission to combat deflation at all costs.

Over the long term historical trend 2% is what we've been seeing. Anything below 5% is considered pretty okay. We have people speculating that the banks will suddenly release their reserves and cause another bubble, but this has yet to happen.

As I've said elsewhere in the thread, I don't trust the government figures on inflation, independent measurements always end up higher. It's like any figure the government would rather be lower, as the people who control how the measurements are made; they can tweak them in their favour. In the UK for instance the government boasts about full time employment is on the rise. What they fail to mention is that the governments definition of full time employment is 16 hours, not the 35-40 hours the public consider full time...

Adjusted for inflation in relation to what, exactly? RGDP? People who bang on about the gold standard tend to relate the value of a currency in comparison to gold.

In relation to the dollar. Open up any inflation calculator online and look at $850 in 1980 vs the same buying power today. It would take over $2300, by the governments measurement of inflation, for it to beat its all time high measured in dollars.

Well, yeah. Inflation is GOOD and it's what we want to happen with our type of economy. When I say "speculation" I'm talking about people buying anything with the notion that it will increase in value over time. That is ALWAYS speculating, no matter how sure you think you are.

Inflation is not in the interests of the vast majority of the population. Even a mortgage owner who is seeing their debt nibbled at by inflation, loses out when it comes to the increased cost of living. You cannot devalue your way to prosperity, especially when everyone else is at this race to the bottom as well. They want to get people spending more, while at the same time they're eroding their disposable income.

It had more to do with rampant inflation at the time, which The Fed was able to subside by increasing interest rates (with the downside of losing jobs).

Inflation did go out of control after the fallout of the world being forced off the gold standard, so high interest rates were necessary to reinforce confidence in the currency. In the Bank of England, they actually went as high as 17% at one point in the late 1970s. Prior to 1971, the highest rate you saw was 8%, then boom.

Of course that tool isn't available today. They're keeping rates down to prop up the economy and debtors. If confidence in the currency did become a problem, any increase in interest rates would obliterate the economy. Thus, you can understand why it would be in their interests to downplay inflation.

Look, not everyone is out to get you. That said, investing is tricky. It is always a gamble and in order to make a profit you need to do something others aren't. That's why I am not too thrilled about the idea of investing in stocks, at least right now. EVERYONE seems to be investing in stocks these days, up to the point where "investing" has become synonymous with the word stocks. There are other markets, such as emerging funds, but I'm not too sure how much of that is saturated at this point either.

People say you should invest with a diversified portfolio but if everyone is investing into diversified markets (let's assume 100% diversity by everyone) then nobody actually made any money. It would all just be inflation. It's not the government trying to screw everyone over. The government is seriously doing the best they can for everyone but there is still the harsh reality that in real life, not everyone can be the winner. That's just the way it goes.

That comment wasn't intended as a "the government is out to get me". I was saying you cannot base all your decisions on how the government 'could' screw you, because that's a possibility; where as the threat of inflation is right here and now. The government is already screwing people by cooperating with the central bank to inflate away their debts, the collateral damage being savers and a rising cost of living. The question is how to respond to that, without getting hit by one of these flash crashes or wiped out when the current paradigm inevitably changes. They cannot keep rates at 0.5%/0.25% forever, and the longer they remain this low the more damage they will cause when they do go up. Right now, someone is taking out a mortgage they can only afford at today's interest rates, which they will lose when interest rates inevitably go up.

You can always assume inflation, in any case. Ever. Our economy depends on it. HYPERINFLATION is another story, and what you are saying is basically a doomsday scenario. If the stock market tanked that would do the opposite of what you are saying and there would be a DE-flation. Basically, all this money that existed at one point just evaporated into thin air. Luckily, we are able to prevent this or hyperinflation from happening using fractional reserve techniques. We are in America; this isn't Zimbabwe and however much you'd like to think there's some huge conspiracy there really isn't (well, aside from the banks making a shit ton of money off the whole thing).

Please don't attach labels like "conspiracy theory" to my comments. I'm not going on a limb here, just commenting on what is actually going on.

I seriously doubt our governments would "allow" there to be deflation, because deflation hurts debtors and governments are the biggest debtors of them all. They'd sooner add zeros to their currency, wiping out debts measured in it, than allow deflation to take hold. Credit demand fell off a cliff in 2008 and low credit demand is inherently deflationary, so part of the money creation going on is trying to combat that. But if they keep creating money at this scale, especially when it's to fund government deficits, it's going to stop being about deflation. If deflation was winning, the cost of living wouldn't be a worsening problem.
 

TeenageAngst

Banned
Banned
Maybe it's because my economics professor currently works full time for the government in managing the effects of the bailouts, but they're not freaking me out nearly so much. What freaks me out more is that, knowing how fractional reserve banking works, and seeing how much money was directly injected into the banking system, we're not seeing the economy recover. We should be half-way to a new bubble collapse but the banks refuse to lend out the new cash in spite of lower reserve requirements.
 

ADF

Member
Maybe it's because my economics professor currently works full time for the government in managing the effects of the bailouts, but they're not freaking me out nearly so much. What freaks me out more is that, knowing how fractional reserve banking works, and seeing how much money was directly injected into the banking system, we're not seeing the economy recover. We should be half-way to a new bubble collapse but the banks refuse to lend out the new cash in spite of lower reserve requirements.

Look at it from the banks perspective. If you have access to unlimited free money from the central banks, why do you need customers?
 

ADF

Member
ADF that's so ridiculously ignorant I'm not even going to bother.

Look, when interest rates are at healthy levels, banks encourage their customers to save with them (essentially lend the bank their money) in exchange for interest on savings. Interest is used to encourage people to leave their money in the bank for extended periods of time, so that the bank has that capital available to use as reserve on loans. Another side of banking is investments, where a investment banker handles all the work involved in stocks and shares; in exchange for a cut. So there is a mutually beneficial relationship between the saver/investor and the banker, where the banker is being allowed access to someone else's money in order to turn it into more money.

They could just go to the central bank in order to get this reserve capital, but depending on what the central banks base interest rate is at; it can often be cheaper to source the money from the public instead. The consequence of this benefiting savers and investors through the banks profit seeking, and the debtors benefiting from the availability of credit.

Cue 2001 dot-com bubble. Interest rates at the central bank are reduced in order to combat a recession.

The above model is now skewed in favour of loaning money from the central bank as opposed to sourcing it from the public. The cheap money pumping up debt influenced assets such as houses, and the market becomes geared more towards speculation than savings and investment.

Cue 2008 economic crisis.

Now interest rates are at historical lows, central bank money is basically free if you can access it. Why do they need the depositor? This is reflected in the interest rates offered on accounts, they're all well below inflation. The banks aren't interested in encouraging people to keep their money in deposit accounts, because now they've got the discount window at the central bank to provide all the cheap money they could possibly want. Interest rates are so low, when you factor inflation banks basically being paid to accept money. So why do they need you and me to lend them money?

Banks aren't lending no matter how low reserve requirements are, nor how much reserve money is pumped into them, because they don't need savings/investments/loans customers to make money any more. They have unlimited access to free money, and there is a giant casino call Wall Street over there. Better odds than lending into this recession/depression economy and hoping someone doesn't declare bankruptcy. That's why the UK government are creating their own taxpayer backed banks, because they've realised the commercial banks couldn't care less what happens to the real economy now, so long as the discount window stays open.

So again, why do the banks need their customers? They get their capital from the Fed and their profits from speculation in the markets. The traditional banking model as completely broken down in this environment, they have little interest in lending to help businesses grow.

Right... Spiraling into a recession is so much better for everyone :roll:

Yes, it is... because recessions essentially provide a culling service that wipes out unsustainable businesses and bad investments. What survives are businesses with strong sound foundations, so when the economy starts growing again what remains creates a better stock of entrepreneurs for the next economic cycle. That and recessions are temporary, they are hardly the end of the world.

By avoiding the recession, by propping up what shouldn't have been propped up, we allowed unsustainable businesses practices to flourish and got the mess in 2008. The biggest economic crisis in recent history...

In regard to inflation, there isn't going to be any recovery if you wipe out disposable income. Governments keep banging on about people needing to spend more to help the economy. All while they're simultaneously destroying the public's disposable income; by killing savings based incomes (pensioners, people earning interest), eroding work incomes by debasing the currency and driving down bond/gilt rates through debt monetisation. It's as if they've declared war on capital, and then they criticise the public for not spending what little disposable income their policies haven't destroyed...

Not that any of this matters, because here in the UK we're in recession anyway, regardless of their "stimulus" measures. I'm sure the news debates will be interesting, as they try to rationalise the upcoming triple dip recession isn't as bad as it sounds.
 

Ricky

Well-Known Member
Yes, it is... because recessions essentially provide a culling service that wipes out unsustainable businesses and bad investments. What survives are businesses with strong sound foundations, so when the economy starts growing again what remains creates a better stock of entrepreneurs for the next economic cycle. That and recessions are temporary, they are hardly the end of the world.

A recession wipes out jobs and can lead to a depression.

Saying it promotes economic Darwinism and is a good thing because of that is just plain ignorant.

You don't need a recession for businesses to compete.

By avoiding the recession, by propping up what shouldn't have been propped up, we allowed unsustainable businesses practices to flourish and got the mess in 2008. The biggest economic crisis in recent history...

Uuh... 2008 *WAS* the recession. Oh, but according to you that's a GOOD thing, right?

We need more 2008's! YAY RECESSION! ^_^
 

TeenageAngst

Banned
Banned
Banks aren't lending no matter how low reserve requirements are, nor how much reserve money is pumped into them, because they don't need savings/investments/loans customers to make money any more. They have unlimited access to free money, and there is a giant casino call Wall Street over there. Better odds than lending into this recession/depression economy and hoping someone doesn't declare bankruptcy. That's why the UK government are creating their own taxpayer backed banks, because they've realised the commercial banks couldn't care less what happens to the real economy now, so long as the discount window stays open.

Actually a lot of banks didn't want to take the money from the government and gave it back as soon as they possibly could, because the government money came with dramatic strings attached. So no, it's not infinite money from the Fed and no the banks still need investors. They just declared a lending freeze because of the absolute turmoil of the economy. Only recently are they just beginning to ease up on the requirements to borrow. Just shows how much you know about the credit crisis after effects.

Just stop, son. You're played out.
 

ADF

Member
A recession wipes out jobs and can lead to a depression.

Saying it promotes economic Darwinism and is a good thing because of that is just plain ignorant.

You don't need a recession for businesses to compete.

Recessions are a consequence of economies taking unsound directions and the model they used for growth failing. In the case of 2001, it was the dot-net bubble bursting when they realised just having a website didn't mean you'd be making lots of money.

I'm not arguing recessions for recessions sake is a good thing, it's just a natural consequence of a failed model, and it's clearing that failure out of the system.

Uuh... 2008 *WAS* the recession. Oh, but according to you that's a GOOD thing, right?

We need more 2008's! YAY RECESSION! ^_^

2008 wasn't a recession, it wasn't a depression either, it was a systemic collapse of the global financial system. If emergency measures weren't taken, all money would have went to zero and we would have had to resort to bartering... This isn't an exaggeration, that's how bad things were.

Does that sound like it was worth dodging a recession in 2001? By kicking the can, they just created the environment for a bigger bubble to develop down the road. One so large that we're still feeling its consequences now.

Actually a lot of banks didn't want to take the money from the government and gave it back as soon as they possibly could, because the government money came with dramatic strings attached. So no, it's not infinite money from the Fed and no the banks still need investors. They just declared a lending freeze because of the absolute turmoil of the economy. Only recently are they just beginning to ease up on the requirements to borrow. Just shows how much you know about the credit crisis after effects.

Just stop, son. You're played out.

Leave little bits like that at the end out... they're unnecessary.

You're confusing the bailout money, which came from the government, with the money available from the central bank. Banks like Barclays avoided accepting a 'government bailout' at all costs, as they didn't want the restrictions. But there are no restrictions on loaning money from the central bank, only the cost of lending from them.
 
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TeenageAngst

Banned
Banned
I'm going back on topic since arguing this tangent further is pointless.

I've always been a dividend fan as well. They aren't huge factors for me, but they're great bonuses and often times help me decide between multiple companies.

Dividends are pretty much non-factors. The slightest bump in a stock's performance can overcome a dividend bonus. Personally I prefer to look at the fundamentals. When the market tanked in 2008, places like Big Lots and Costco shot up for instance. Just practical common sense is your best friend for proper portfolio management.
 

ADF

Member
k, I give up :roll:

What was happening in 2008 is called a systemic collapse, not a recession. A recession is several (3+?) consecutive quarters of negative growth, were as what was happening in 2008 was the economic and monetary system itself failing.

Thankfully what we ended up getting was a recession. Thanks only to emergency measures such as bailing out the banks, deposit guarantees and slashing interest rates. We should be thankful because it could have been a lot worse.
 

ADF

Member
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-21530624

The Fed just suggests in their minutes that they 'might' stop creating funny money to buy bonds and the global stock market drops...

Can we really call this a free market when a few words from one entity affects the entire globe? Talk about being addicted to stimulus, it's things like this that make me very sceptical of any growth or recovery claims. It's all basically a stimulus high from all the money creation and asset purchases going on.
 
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Ricky

Well-Known Member
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-21530624

The Fed just suggests in their minutes that they 'might' stop creating funny money to buy bonds and the global stock market drops...

Can we really call this a free market when a few words from one entity affects the entire globe? Talk about being addicted to stimulus, it's things like this that make me very sceptical of any growth or recovery claims. It's all basically a stimulus high from all the money creation and asset purchases going on.

It shows just how fucking volatile the market is right now. It wasn't even anything substantial; the Fed claims they might look into the possibility of reducing the rate of stimulus and there is a 100+ point drop in the Dow. This isn't a completely free market anyway and the Fed's raison d'etre is regulation of the money supply. SOME regulation I think is needed, for example to prevent monopolies, but I really think it would be better to stop trying to fuck with the economy so much and let things run their course. I'm sure you would agree. Boom and bust cycles are a natural part of our type of economy and it's just money moving around. I really think they could be doing more harm than good.

The stock market is used as a barometer for vitality of the economy, but I think that's because it is so saturated at the moment. It is a pretty accurate measurement in that respect, but I'm not convinced this will always be the case. Unless big businesses keep growing forever, or more and more people somehow invest I really think there is a point where it needs to hit a cap. I don't think we are there yet and if the Fed keeps printing this 85 billion a month, chances are it will keep going up and it will appear to be doing better. I don't know how long this can keep up though, and at some point if people realize they aren't getting a good return on their investment they are going to look at other markets and that will hit the Dow real hard.

In the end though, it's just money moving around. The whole "recession" in 2008 was mostly due to consumer and investor confidence, after all. Things like the housing market just helped trigger it but people losing jobs means less people spend, which means businesses lose more money which means people lose more jobs. That's the self-perpetuating downward spiral that can occur and that's the reason taking action can HELP the economy in that type of situation. So, I'm not going to say all of it is bad but we aren't anywhere close to that cycle, not in the US at least, so I think it's silly they are still printing $85B a month. I also think it's very possible the inflationary effects haven't hit us yet and not to sound like a demagogue but most of the time inflation hits a country it isn't very linear. There is a point where is just goes BOOM into an exponential rate. Then again, this isn't Zimbabwe and we are playing pretty close attention to the inflationary rates and the Fed would step in if they saw signs of trouble. I just can't believe pumping all this money into the economy has the minimal effects it seems to be having in that case.

That said, I don't really care. Most of my savings is in assets anyway; I only have a small part of it in US dollars.

If inflation were to hit us bad, I would still be all set.
 

ADF

Member
It shows just how fucking volatile the market is right now. It wasn't even anything substantial; the Fed claims they might look into the possibility of reducing the rate of stimulus and there is a 100+ point drop in the Dow. This isn't a completely free market anyway and the Fed's raison d'etre is regulation of the money supply. SOME regulation I think is needed, for example to prevent monopolies, but I really think it would be better to stop trying to fuck with the economy so much and let things run their course. I'm sure you would agree. Boom and bust cycles are a natural part of our type of economy and it's just money moving around. I really think they could be doing more harm than good.

Central banks ramping interest rates up and down to influence an economy, has the subtly of a sledge hammer. When they're low for too long, a economy (as they put it) can "overheat" with unsustainable levels of growth or high inflation, so they stick up interest rates to combat it. But any growth as a result of those lower rates then gets hammered, as their business model may be dependant on those low rates just to function (e.g. CDO market). Then when they think things have calmed down they stick the rates down again to encourage growth...

So central banks play a large role in the boom and bust cycle. With low rates creating a boom period and high rates creating a bust. This also enriches bankers to an extent, as when everyone starts defaulting (whether a base rate influenced loan or because of a recessionary environment) because the rates went up; the bankers get to claim the collateral assets such as the house. But if they keep rates too low for too long, we get like what we experienced. A bubble that just kept growing and growing to the point where when it finally exploded, the gaping hole it left in the economy and banks balance sheets was unrecoverable.

There are those who question the need for a central bank at all, using market forces to determine rates rather than handing that power to a small group of people. Politicians argue independence from political influence is necessary and the central bank should be separate from the government, but try telling that to the central banks who have been catering to the political classes every whim as of late. The UK's credit rating downgrade is unlikely to influence the rates the government can loan at to any significant degree, as our own central bank is our primary lender... Which of course the government will hold up as evidence that credit ratings don't matter.

The stock market is used as a barometer for vitality of the economy, but I think that's because it is so saturated at the moment. It is a pretty accurate measurement in that respect, but I'm not convinced this will always be the case. Unless big businesses keep growing forever, or more and more people somehow invest I really think there is a point where it needs to hit a cap. I don't think we are there yet and if the Fed keeps printing this 85 billion a month, chances are it will keep going up and it will appear to be doing better. I don't know how long this can keep up though, and at some point if people realize they aren't getting a good return on their investment they are going to look at other markets and that will hit the Dow real hard.

It's a big game of musical chairs really, as long as the music keeps playing; no one loses. As long as the central bank keeps pumping the markets full of cheap/free money, the stock market will keep going up. But it's not going up in real terms, because whatever gains are made through these rising prices has to be measured against the rising cost of living, as a result of all this money creation. Obviously, the central bank cannot keep printing/bond buying into infinity and not expect any consequences.

In the end though, it's just money moving around. The whole "recession" in 2008 was mostly due to consumer and investor confidence, after all. Things like the housing market just helped trigger it but people losing jobs means less people spend, which means businesses lose more money which means people lose more jobs. That's the self-perpetuating downward spiral that can occur and that's the reason taking action can HELP the economy in that type of situation.

I hear this a lot and it's a claim I have problems with. What happened in 2008 wasn't a confidence issue, all the confidence in the world isn't going to make people buy junk status investment products. There was a lot of credit rating fraud during the boom that pushed junk status investments as AAA assets, because people had confidence in the credit rating system. But when these investments inevitably blew up, the credit rating became irrelevant. If they are not making any money, in fact losing money, people are going to stop buying them.

People throwing their money down a black hole and getting nothing back isn't a confidence issue. Even if you could convince them to keep doing it, they're still not going to get anything back, no matter how confident they are that they will.

So, I'm not going to say all of it is bad but we aren't anywhere close to that cycle, not in the US at least, so I think it's silly they are still printing $85B a month. I also think it's very possible the inflationary effects haven't hit us yet and not to sound like a demagogue but most of the time inflation hits a country it isn't very linear. There is a point where is just goes BOOM into an exponential rate. Then again, this isn't Zimbabwe and we are playing pretty close attention to the inflationary rates and the Fed would step in if they saw signs of trouble. I just can't believe pumping all this money into the economy has the minimal effects it seems to be having in that case.

That said, I don't really care. Most of my savings is in assets anyway; I only have a small part of it in US dollars.

If inflation were to hit us bad, I would still be all set.

Some people compare quantitative easing to a drug with diminishing effectiveness, requiring larger and larger doses until the patient overdoses (unstoppable inflation). But one we're addicted to none the less.

The markets are very much addicted to this drug, with any suggestion of lessening its supply making it panic. It's why anyone playing with investments should seriously consider what affects whatever they're invested in, and how the potential of all this turning into another crisis will affect them. Prior to the crash Collateralized Debt Obligations were 'the' big investment, but their success were directly tied to mortgage repayments. When all these sub prime mortgages blew up, so did the CDOs. So whatever people are invested in, they have to seriously consider what that investment is deriving its value from, and what that is deriving its value from and so on. The number of people who got wiped out in 2008, because they had no idea buried somewhere in their investment portfolio; there was a CDO backing it all. Packaged and repackaged so much that on face value it didn't look linked to the mortgage market. That or they didn't realise their pension company was also heavily invested in mortgages.

Something that is restricting inflation in the US is the dollars reserve status, as the US can export inflation to other countries because of the perpetual demand for dollars globally. If anything were to happen to bring these dollars home, I'd be very concerned about inflation in America.
 
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Rasly

Banned
Banned
So many people think they know how stuff works, but still can't predict anything at all.
Usefull info on stacks costs lots of money and is illegal as far as i know.

Maybe some new technologies could be worth investing into, but i for once, don't know how to find them.

Also, i can't fkn believe that Onlive got bankrupt, that was like the only new project i wanted to invest into.
 

PsychicOtter

Otter Missionary
So many people think they know how stuff works, but still can't predict anything at all.
Usefull info on stacks costs lots of money and is illegal as far as i know.

Maybe some new technologies could be worth investing into, but i for once, don't know how to find them.

Also, i can't fkn believe that Onlive got bankrupt, that was like the only new project i wanted to invest into.
Not all useful info is illegal. If you have insider information that a merger is happening, you can't use that to get an unfair edge, but there's plenty you can find out to help.
 

Ricky

Well-Known Member
Central banks ramping interest rates up and down to influence an economy, has the subtly of a sledge hammer. When they're low for too long, a economy (as they put it) can "overheat" with unsustainable levels of growth or high inflation, so they stick up interest rates to combat it. But any growth as a result of those lower rates then gets hammered, as their business model may be dependant on those low rates just to function (e.g. CDO market). Then when they think things have calmed down they stick the rates down again to encourage growth...

So central banks play a large role in the boom and bust cycle. With low rates creating a boom period and high rates creating a bust. This also enriches bankers to an extent, as when everyone starts defaulting (whether a base rate influenced loan or because of a recessionary environment) because the rates went up; the bankers get to claim the collateral assets such as the house. But if they keep rates too low for too long, we get like what we experienced. A bubble that just kept growing and growing to the point where when it finally exploded, the gaping hole it left in the economy and banks balance sheets was unrecoverable.

The central bank is trying to fight the boom and bust cycle.

Credit booms and busts have been around since at least the 1600's, and are always fueled by speculation.

I hear this a lot and it's a claim I have problems with. What happened in 2008 wasn't a confidence issue, all the confidence in the world isn't going to make people buy junk status investment products. There was a lot of credit rating fraud during the boom that pushed junk status investments as AAA assets, because people had confidence in the credit rating system. But when these investments inevitably blew up, the credit rating became irrelevant. If they are not making any money, in fact losing money, people are going to stop buying them.

I don't know about "credit rating fraud" but junk investments such as sub-prime mortgage loans and CDO's (that were largely backed by sub-prime mortage loans) helped trigger the whole thing. If people were being dishonest that only added to it. That didn't cut the Dow in half, though, IMO. When people panic it causes a chain reaction. Stocks can act just like tulips; their price is heavily dependent on demand and in a saturated market changes in confidence can have a huge reaction.

So, in other words -- the market was hit hard by all that, yes, which triggered the resulting sell-off.

Most of that wasn't the money *we thought existed* from the shitty loans, but was (negative) speculation.

People throwing their money down a black hole and getting nothing back isn't a confidence issue. Even if you could convince them to keep doing it, they're still not going to get anything back, no matter how confident they are that they will.

I don't care about them, to be quite honest. I wasn't even investing at that point and if I had the capital I would have bought stocks when they were way cheap.

Investing always carries a risk. People should know that.

Some people compare quantitative easing to a drug with diminishing effectiveness, requiring larger and larger doses until the patient overdoses (unstoppable inflation). But one we're addicted to none the less.

I don't think anything dramatic would happen if they were to stop, except possibly the stock market crashing over the next decade or so.

Again, people expect their "investment" to get a good return. I think it's all a huge facade at this point.
 

ADF

Member
The central bank is trying to fight the boom and bust cycle.

Credit booms and busts have been around since at least the 1600's, and are always fueled by speculation.

They're causing the very damage they were created to avoid. The only difference is the central bank can create boom and busts at will, rather than it being a market correction. Though it appears they've lost control, they cannot create a boom even if rates are effectively negative. One has to question what was going through Alan Greenspan's mind when he left rates artificially low for so long, long after recovery and well into the boom years, he should have known he was creating a bubble.

If part of a central banks job is to avoid the boom and bust cycle, they've utterly failed and done the exact opposite, creating bubbles where there shouldn't be.

I don't know about "credit rating fraud" but junk investments such as sub-prime mortgage loans and CDO's (that were largely backed by sub-prime mortage loans) helped trigger the whole thing. If people were being dishonest that only added to it. That didn't cut the Dow in half, though, IMO. When people panic it causes a chain reaction. Stocks can act just like tulips; their price is heavily dependent on demand and in a saturated market changes in confidence can have a huge reaction.

So, in other words -- the market was hit hard by all that, yes, which triggered the resulting sell-off.

Most of that wasn't the money *we thought existed* from the shitty loans, but was (negative) speculation.

Speculators are parasites that increase market volatility, but ultimately they just follow the trend and quite frankly shouldn't be getting all the blame they do. The UK recently blamed speculators for the pound falling against the dollar/euro, never mind all the crap going on in this country. Speculators seem to be the go to when governments are looking to blame someone else for their own incompetence. Nixon blamed speculators for America's problems in 1971 as well, never mind America getting caught committing fraud that would inevitably result in a run on the dollar when caught...

I don't care about them, to be quite honest. I wasn't even investing at that point and if I had the capital I would have bought stocks when they were way cheap.

Investing always carries a risk. People should know that.

Yes investments carry risk and that risk is reflected in the assets credit rating. Investors shouldn't be blamed for not realising how high risk sub prime backed CDOs were, because the credit rating agencies gave these CDOs a AAA gold standard, which was supposed to be trustworthy. They were making small AAA safe returns on what were essentially junk status investments, taking the risk but not the reward.

Don't blame the victim, blame the fraudster who AAA stamped whatever the banks put in front of them.

I don't think anything dramatic would happen if they were to stop, except possibly the stock market crashing over the next decade or so.

Again, people expect their "investment" to get a good return. I think it's all a huge facade at this point.

Free unlimited money (quantitative easing with negative interest rates) is the only thing propping up this economy and creating the illusion of a recovery. If the Fed and other central banks stopped printing money tomorrow, there would be a crisis of proportionate scale to 2008. Probably even bigger. Which shows what a dire situation we are in, and that this "recovery" cannot be sustained. They're going down this path with full knowledge that it is a temporary measure, praying that something will help create the needed growth before that happens. When central banks stop creating money to prop up the economy and fund government spending, we're screwed, and the fallout will be a lot worse than just a market crash. When America cannot pay their bills, who bails them out?
 
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Ricky

Well-Known Member
If part of a central banks job is to avoid the boom and bust cycle, they've utterly failed and done the exact opposite, creating bubbles where there shouldn't be.

There was a housing bubble but that wasn't really their fault.

If you are speculating there's another one then I guess that's open to debate.

Yes investments carry risk and that risk is reflected in the assets credit rating. Investors shouldn't be blamed for not realising how high risk sub prime backed CDOs were, because the credit rating agencies gave these CDOs a AAA gold standard, which was supposed to be trustworthy. They were making small AAA safe returns on what were essentially junk status investments, taking the risk but not the reward.

Don't blame the victim, blame the fraudster who AAA stamped whatever the banks put in front of them.

I don't think it was fraud; wasn't there just a higher than expected rate on foreclosures?

Just because someone says "hey, this investment is safe" and it seems official, it doesn't make it 100% safe.

That is the nature of investing. Not everyone can make money; there have to be losers there, too.

Also, I'm sure that rating was for the entire portfolio, right?

Free unlimited money (quantitative easing with negative interest rates) is the only thing propping up this economy and creating the illusion of a recovery. If the Fed and other central banks stopped printing money tomorrow, there would be a crisis of proportionate scale to 2008. Probably even bigger. Which shows what a dire situation we are in, and that this "recovery" cannot be sustained. They're going down this path with full knowledge that it is a temporary measure, praying that something will help create the needed growth before that happens. When central banks stop creating money to prop up the economy and fund government spending, we're screwed, and the fallout will be a lot worse than just a market crash. When America cannot pay their bills, who bails them out?

Again, that seems like a doomsday scenario.

I'm not even sure anything would happen if they stopped.

I'd be interested to know how one determines that.
 

ADF

Member
There was a housing bubble but that wasn't really their fault.

If you are speculating there's another one then I guess that's open to debate.

The central bank is directly responsible for the creation of the credit and housing bubble. They kept rates too low for too long, enabling the cheap credit to prop up consumption despite falling wages and make mortgages cheaper than they should be. The government also played a role with their regulations, but it was cheap credit that fuelled housing demand and speculation.

The bubble of the early naughties wouldn't have been possible without the central banks involvement.

I don't think it was fraud; wasn't there just a higher than expected rate on foreclosures?

Grading a sub prime mortgage backed CDO as a AAA prime mortgage investment is fraud.

Just because someone says "hey, this investment is safe" and it seems official, it doesn't make it 100% safe.

That is the nature of investing. Not everyone can make money; there have to be losers there, too.

Also, I'm sure that rating was for the entire portfolio, right?

All investments carry risk, there is no such thing as a perfectly safe investment. But credit rating agencies are supposed to rate that risk so that investors can judge how much of it they're willing to take on, risk vs reward. Those holding sub prime mortgage backed CDOs, without their knowledge because they were told they were AAA, was taking on all the risk but none of the reward associated with that risk.

Again, that seems like a doomsday scenario.

I'm not even sure anything would happen if they stopped.

I'd be interested to know how one determines that.

Our governments are essentially insolvent. The main thing funding UK/US government deficit spending is debt monetisation, our own central banks simply creating the money and "lending" it to our governments. Markets aside, if central banks stopped creating money tomorrow, our governments would be unable to fund their obligations. They would be unable to repay their debts, and would default.

The reason the EU was so desperate to stop the likes of Greece, Spain and Italy defaulting is because of something they call contamination. Governments were considered the safest bet around, virtually no chance of default, unless its some banana republic or 3rd world country. If a 1st world country, a major one even, were to default. This would ripple across the bonds market, causing interest rates to rise on the open market for governments to lend money. Possibly sending other governments over the edge, causing more insolvency, creating more risk and sending rates even higher. You can see how it could spiral out of control, with defaults sending rates higher and causing more defaults.

This is why it's essential a recovery is in place BEFORE removing the central banks propping up measures, or you would be pulling the rug from under governments and potentially kick starting a economic death spiral.
 
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