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The future of furry writing

Poetigress

Panthera tigris libris
I was wondering if a possible requirement could be having one reject letter from one publisher (because damned if reject letters aren't easy to get these days). But at the same time, that discourages people who are joining for literature qua literature. Unless you meant something else by "publication credits."

By "publication credits," I mean actually having something published in an edited market (that is, not just self-published by putting it up on FA or one's own website or whatever). This could be either a market inside the fandom (New Fables, Heat, Roar, Anthro, etc.) or any market outside it as well.

I think using a rejection letter would make things a little too easy, personally (and see below), but you might be right in that it's enough of a required action that it might at least weed out the people who would be too lazy and/or not interested enough in publication to bother.

sunandshadow said:
I think having a goal of promoting furry writing, and a requirement of writers who have already finished pieces and been confident enough int heir quality to be seeking publication, are inherently contradictory. :/ Those are exactly the people who already have an established style and technique that works for them, and probably don't need or want critique except with the goal of improving a specific piece. These should be the mentors, not the students. The only restriction I personally would put on the forum would be by age.

The group of people I'm interested in is entirely different - people who haven't been published, people who have difficulty finishing pieces because they haven't yet found a workflow that gets them there without too much hair-pulling and block, people who no one cares about their ideas so why should they kill themselves striving to create literature, people with a weak area like plotting or character that they want mentors to help them study.

I think you're putting published writers on a bit of a pedestal here. :) There are plenty of published writers, myself included, who know full well they still have a ways to go and still want to improve. Yes, I may have established style and technique and some methods that I know will probably work for me. But I still have difficulty finishing pieces. I still hit roadblocks and would like to have a supportive, private environment to develop ideas in. And we all, published or not, have weak areas.

You say that published writers "probably don't need or want critique except with the goal of improving a specific piece." Here's the thing, though -- all critique is really about is improving a specific piece. It's true that, over time, and especially if you develop a relationship with the people critiquing your work, you can get a bigger picture of what your overall weaknesses and strengths are, and develop in that way. But critique is not some kind of magic-wand workshop where you automatically learn what you're doing right and wrong overall. You learn it story by story, crit by crit. Every story is different; what works in one may not work in another. That's all critique is. Figuring out what's working, what might not be, and what could be improved in a specific piece.

The truth is, it is not as hard to get a short story published as I think most people around here think it is. Into the top markets, yeah. But there are tons of places out there publishing fiction, many of which (especially a lot of online markets) cater to new and beginning writers. So to me "published" doesn't automatically mean "arrived" or "expert" or even "professional."

I know some people might think, "yeah, well, easy for her to say," but I just honestly don't think it's a bad thing to have to attain a certain level on your own, to then be able get into something like this. I think that's what Duroc is getting at, that the point of this is to encourage people to aim for something. One of my biggest pet peeves with writers in the fandom is that there can be a massive lack of initiative in terms of learning the basics of the craft. I don't mean that people don't want to learn (well, some really don't, but that's not what I'm talking about). I'm talking about people who expect someone to hold their hands and tell them step-by-step how to write a story, how to do this aspect, how to do that, how to send something to an editor, on and on and on. Don't get me wrong -- I'm not talking about just one or two questions or something specific to a particular story where somebody wants to talk shop. I'm talking about people who don't seem to understand that there's a wealth of knowledge available with a simple Google search or, far better, a trip to the local library and/or bookstore to look at a few books or magazines about writing. These are people who want to be published, and sometimes I wonder if most of them grasp the fact that writing does kind of require the ability to do some basic research and not expect to be handed everything you need.

I do think an age requirement will wind up being a must if there's going to be erotica involved, simply to satisfy potential legal issues or issues with wherever this site would be hosted. That said, there are some sites that have a forum/area specifically for teen writers, but that may or may not be warranted in this case.

I'm not arguing for these types of requirements so that the members can sit around and enjoy feeling superior to all the poor slobs who aren't published. I'm not arguing for them in order to keep people out. I'm arguing for them because I believe that, in the end, it makes for a much more supportive and productive environment when people have similar goals and (more or less) similar levels of committment to whatever the purpose is. If you can do that with a mission statement or some other kind of requirement, then that'll work, too.
 

Aeturnus

\m/ Rock on \m/
Why don't we just drop the 'furry' part and promote stories as a work of fiction? I don't know about the rest of you, but I'd rather classify my work as either drama and/or thriller with a bit of fantasy, the fantasy part having to deal with 'furry' characters.
 

sunandshadow

Impractical Fantasy Animal
And my mind started going "lalalalala..." while reading this. Nobody can do everything that. Come on. Poetigress, Duroc and some others seem to have a decent, workable idea here... if you try doing everything at once, I doubt there'll be any success... too much stuff on one plate.
But I'm just agreeing with what others have said - there are plenty of sites focused on critiquing specific pieces of fiction already, another one wouldn't accomplish anything. If I may paraphrase you, I also feel that the idea poetigress is developing doesn't seem relevant to my interests.

My intent was just to describe the kind of group I'd want to join and actively participate in. I know what I want isn't particularly important, but I thought it was a useful data point about what writers' community needs I think aren't currently being fulfilled. And I'm offering to help with the weekly discussion topics and plot critique forum. All I want is a place where erotica writers are welcome, not treated like second-class citizens.

Okay, lessee... You are not supposed to critique anything on the forums. You submit your art, in this case, writing, prose or poetry, in the main site. After you have your story up, you come to the forums and post a request for critique in the critique thread. Then, the person doing the critique goes back to the main site, reads your stuff, and writes his or her comment/crit on the main site. Forums being pg-13 has no effect on anything.
Can you post scrap scenes and synopses to an FA account? I thought it was supposed to be art and finished stories? But thank you for explaining that the critique is supposed to be done in the comments of the pieces insted of in a forum thread, I didn't understand that. Although I joined FA a while ago, I didn't join the forum until a few days ago and I haven't tried to join in with the critiquing yet so I hadn't read up on how it works here. But if I can post synopses, I'll stick some up, give some crits to earn membership, then request to be critted in return and see if the results are actually useful and friendly. I'm kinda skeptical because in the few days since I joined this forum I've overall been getting the feeling that there's some unpleasant anti-erotica or anti-fetish sentiment going on here. But it's worth a shot.
 

Poetigress

Panthera tigris libris
I think the one thing that will make it a success, though, would be to have a way for non-writers to enjoy it. Otherwise, what's the point? It's nice to have a furry writing guild and it's nice to have a community of writers. But we do need to heavily focus on what can be done to get READERS. The problem I face (and others face) is that people read my porn, but not much else. And arguably, my non-porn is better quality than my porn.

There exist a number of furry and furry-like markets out there that no one has ever heard of. What's going to make this thing any different?

We're back to serving one or the other, but not both very well. I'll let Duroc take up this question because it sounds like he's taking the lead here, but I don't think the idea that's developing is really meant to be a market per se; it's more of a supportive network. I think the idea is to promote quality writing with anthro characters and themes, generally, going on the assumption that this would then give readers of existing venues better stuff to read, and the editors better work to choose from and publish. No, that's not the same thing as the type of juried gallery site I was describing, that would be a great thing for readers -- but I'm beginning to think that the ideas in this thread could easily foster two or three different websites serving different aspects of writing in the fandom. :)
 

Scarborough

Cliched & Trite
By "publication credits," I mean actually having something published in an edited market (that is, not just self-published by putting it up on FA or one's own website or whatever). This could be either a market inside the fandom (New Fables, Heat, Roar, Anthro, etc.) or any market outside it as well.

I think using a rejection letter would make things a little too easy, personally (and see below), but you might be right in that it's enough of a required action that it might at least weed out the people who would be too lazy and/or not interested enough in publication to bother.

See, the only problem I have with publication credits is that you're probably alienating a large amount of people, notably (as an example), panzergulo, who, as he's stated, has not been "published," which I'm assuming to mean that he's not been published outside of FA, or at least not published in an edited market.
 
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sunandshadow

Impractical Fantasy Animal
By "publication credits," I mean actually having something published in an edited market [...] it might at least weed out the people who would be too lazy and/or not interested enough in publication to bother.
Well, I have no interest in attempting to get published at the current time, so you'd be 'weeding' me out. I don't write short stories, I'm only interested in working at novel length (or writing a script for a graphic novel, but getting an artist to illustrate a script is next to impossible if you can't afford to hire one). And while I'd like to work on a novel length piece with a goal of publication, it would probably be a year before I was ready for critique on actual chapters and two years before I was at the "collecting rejection letters" phase.

But if you don't want your proposed group to include people like me, I'll accept that. One of the writers' groups local to me only allows published novelists in, and I understand why. They critique chapters every two weeks and I wouldn't be able to participate or benefit from that because I don't have chapters ready to critique. It is what you were saying about people having similar goals. I was just imagining a site where each subforum might be a group of people with similar goals, then the forum as a whole could have room for writers at different stages and with different goals. I have more than 8 years of experience critiquing fiction, I think I could be helpful to people who wanted chapters or pieces critted, I just want people to in turn help me develop a good synopsis which would be worth me writing up as a novel and polishing for publication.
 
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Poetigress

Panthera tigris libris
If I may paraphrase you, I also feel that the idea poetigress is developing doesn't seem relevant to my interests.

*nods* I think we all have to remember that no one place is going to work for everybody. At the risk of sounding like a snob, a site geared more toward brand-new writers isn't going to be as relevant to my own interests. :) I know we're all, myself included, putting forth our own perfect setup that will serve our needs -- as I just said in the reply to Graeme's post, there's more than one possible site concept here, because there's obviously more than one niche that's going unfilled.

All I want is a place where erotica writers are welcome, not treated like second-class citizens.

And I think erotica can be a part of it. I realize the earlier part of this thread might have given the impression of an anti-erotica bent among those here. If I personally gave that impression in terms of what I said (and I probably did, but I'm sure not wading back through four pages to find out at this point!), I need to clarify that I don't honestly have an anti-erotica vendetta myself. I've written erotica in the past (furry and non), and though I've kind of cycled out of it for now, there's a good change I'll wind up writing it again sometime in the future. I do recognize it as a valid genre and one that can be just as professional and high-quality as anything else. So as far as the anti-erotica deal goes, I can only really speak for myself, but I think the sentiment boils down to just getting tired of feeling like erotica gets a disproportionate amount of the attention and opportunity in the fandom, even within one's own body of work. That doesn't mean the work itself can't be worthwhile, or that those who write it are all sellout hacks. :)

Can you post scrap scenes and synopses to an FA account? I thought it was supposed to be art and finished stories?

Doesn't have to be finished at all. In terms of text, people have posted RP logs, recipes, school reports, random rants, character descriptions, whatever. Myself, I tend to use Scraps for anything unfinished or done as an exercise, and the main gallery for finished pieces, but as far as I know, there are no hard and fast rules about what goes where.
 
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KatmanDu

Squeezing the Charmin

darkr3x

Mage
Can you post scrap scenes and synopses to an FA account? I thought it was supposed to be art and finished stories?

(Almost) everything I post is a working draft; heck most of what is up in my gallery is at least version 2. It's actually a reason i like posting here, i can update something and not re-post it.
 

Altamont

The Bard of the Beasts
Wow, I only posted a a couple days ago and I'm already two pages behind :)

In regards to the concerns over requiring authors to be published, I'm on the fence about that one. On one hand I also have never had anything officially published (and I haven't actually posted any of my non-poetry work here yet, as I'm meticulous about my work's revisions to a fault; though a Thursday prompt is quickly developing in to a 50 + page short story, which is exciting :) )

On the other hand, I do believe that is a good way to ensure that the members of the guild are striving for something in their writing that goes beyond a hobby. It's a struggle, because I would want what's best for the community but I want to be apart of the community and I feel I would deserve the honor personally...

How about auditions? I know, it is something that has the potential for needless complication, but hear me out.

A main purpose of the guild, as PT and Duroc both pointed out earlier, is the fact that the guild is a goal for others to strive for, to be recognized for one's own accomplishments and to serve a role in a community that was previously too large, chaotic, and cumbersome to make a name in. And an audition, among things like the reviewing of previous work and publication history, could do just that. There could be sign up lists so that submissions don't come flooding in, a word limit for manageability, and multiple reviewers (head members of the guild or perhaps people specifically appointed to the task), who could review the audition and then use that to help decide eligibility.

I'm an actor and a director as well as a writer, so perhaps that's why the process seems to make the most sense to me. There are plenty of working actors who are absolutely terrible compared to "amateurs" I know personally with unbelievable loads of talent. Similarly, just because someone has been published doesn't necessarily reflect their actual value in regards to the guild.

Which is not to undermine publication in any way, shape, or form; obviously if someone has been published they're doing something right. I just think adding in an "audition" factor would allow for non-published writers with talent and drive to have their own opportunities in the guild.

In fact, I think this would be a perfect exclusive for non-published members. If you're published, that's fine and dandy, but if not, you'll have to send in an "audition" piece to prove you're the real deal.

And aside from raw talent, the audition could also help in showing that the person in question is working towards the guild specifically and not just submitting something they wrote years ago, demonstrating a potential at least for not only a talented writer but a valuable member of the community.

Thoughts?
 

sunandshadow

Impractical Fantasy Animal
sunandshadow said:
So, I'd like to see several subforums, one where people who want plotting help submit synopses and concepts, one where people who want character help submit material related to that (a scene introducing a character, a piece of dialogue developing a character, a synopsis focused on character arc and relationship development rather than plot...), a discussion forum for writing theory and technique where mini-lectures are presented weekly as well as independent topics allowed, a forum focused on multimedia team projects such as manga/video games/animation, and finally you can have a subforum for people who want critique on a specific piece intended for publication. Maybe even a roleplay forum which encourages co-writing with intent to produce publishable fiction and shared universe fiction. And above all, this Fur Affinity forum isn't suitable because of the crippling pg-13 rating restriction. How is anyone supposed to critique erotica in an environment like that?
It occurred to me that it might be useful to mention AbsoluteWrite as my model for imagining how several subforums could work together to make a writing community. The only thing I don't really like about AW is how the Show Your Work forums, where critique happens, are hidden away from the rest of the discussion. I personally think a lot more critique would happen if people posted stuff they wanted critiqued in the genre-appropriate discussion forum.

I also think it would be easily possible to have one subforum be more exclusive, it could be restricted to people who are published or who have tried out or whatever, so they would have a private space without totally excluding writers who don't qualify.
 
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nybx4life

A training artist
Wow, I only posted a a couple days ago and I'm already two pages behind :)

In regards to the concerns over requiring authors to be published, I'm on the fence about that one. On one hand I also have never had anything officially published (and I haven't actually posted any of my non-poetry work here yet, as I'm meticulous about my work's revisions to a fault; though a Thursday prompt is quickly developing in to a 50 + page short story, which is exciting :) )

On the other hand, I do believe that is a good way to ensure that the members of the guild are striving for something in their writing that goes beyond a hobby. It's a struggle, because I would want what's best for the community but I want to be apart of the community and I feel I would deserve the honor personally...

How about auditions? I know, it is something that has the potential for needless complication, but hear me out.

A main purpose of the guild, as PT and Duroc both pointed out earlier, is the fact that the guild is a goal for others to strive for, to be recognized for one's own accomplishments and to serve a role in a community that was previously too large, chaotic, and cumbersome to make a name in. And an audition, among things like the reviewing of previous work and publication history, could do just that. There could be sign up lists so that submissions don't come flooding in, a word limit for manageability, and multiple reviewers (head members of the guild or perhaps people specifically appointed to the task), who could review the audition and then use that to help decide eligibility.

I'm an actor and a director as well as a writer, so perhaps that's why the process seems to make the most sense to me. There are plenty of working actors who are absolutely terrible compared to "amateurs" I know personally with unbelievable loads of talent. Similarly, just because someone has been published doesn't necessarily reflect their actual value in regards to the guild.

Which is not to undermine publication in any way, shape, or form; obviously if someone has been published they're doing something right. I just think adding in an "audition" factor would allow for non-published writers with talent and drive to have their own opportunities in the guild.

In fact, I think this would be a perfect exclusive for non-published members. If you're published, that's fine and dandy, but if not, you'll have to send in an "audition" piece to prove you're the real deal.

And aside from raw talent, the audition could also help in showing that the person in question is working towards the guild specifically and not just submitting something they wrote years ago, demonstrating a potential at least for not only a talented writer but a valuable member of the community.

Thoughts?

You know, this idea is really great. Truly, it is.:grin:

Because, after all, I feel it would seem a bit elitist if there's a requirement of only authors that are published. As for now, I believe there should be some requirements, not only for entry, but for staying in the group.
After all, people's motivation can run dry at times, which will make them with low working output for a short to a very long time.


I'll post up more ideas as things come along. I got to catch up a lot to this stuff.
This thread is on fire.
 

panzergulo

canTANKERous individual
So, I'd like to see several subforums, one where people who want plotting help submit synopses and concepts, one where people who want character help submit material related to that (a scene introducing a character, a piece of dialogue developing a character, a synopsis focused on character arc and relationship development rather than plot...), a discussion forum for writing theory and technique where mini-lectures are presented weekly as well as independent topics allowed, a forum focused on multimedia team projects such as manga/video games/animation, and finally you can have a subforum for people who want critique on a specific piece intended for publication. Maybe even a roleplay forum which encourages co-writing with intent to produce publishable fiction and shared universe fiction. And above all, this Fur Affinity forum isn't suitable because of the crippling pg-13 rating restriction. How is anyone supposed to critique erotica in an environment like that?

It occurred to me that it might be useful to mention AbsoluteWrite as my model for imagining how several subforums could work together to make a writing community. The only thing I don't really like about AW is how the Show Your Work forums, where critique happens, are hidden away from the rest of the discussion. I personally think a lot more critique would happen if people posted stuff they wanted critiqued in the genre-appropriate discussion forum.

I also think it would be easily possible to have one subforum be more exclusive, it could be restricted to people who are published or who have tried out or whatever, so they would have a private space without totally excluding writers who don't qualify.

Hey! Don't put your own words into my mouth! Just saying... all that in your quote that is claimed to be said by "panzergulo" is actually your own words... so, would you please be so kind and edit that one post to remove my user name?

Aside that and regarding the earlier question... yeah, yeah, you can post whatever you might ever want in FA as long as it is textual. I bet your synopses/plot summaries are better reading than full-length short stories by some other people... and yes, people do post whatever textual material under "stories"... rants, political speeches, journals, character reference sheets, program code, writing tutorials... you name it. It's very unlikely anybody would come and say "this does not belong" if you just go and submit those unfinished things of yours.



Commenting the general direction of the conversation... it looks like the time has come... I've never been published in edited markets, and nor do I plan to... and "audition", whatever that might ever be in the end, sounds like "torture" to me... so, I guess I say "good luck to y'all", smile, wave my hand and exit the conversation.

Lookin' good, men, women... I like the ideas you have, it just seems to me that whatever it'll be, it'll be irrelevant for my interests. Oh well...
 
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sunandshadow

Impractical Fantasy Animal
Hey! Don't put your own words into my mouth! Just saying... all that in your quote that is claimed to be said by "panzergulo" is actually your own words... so, would you please be so kind and edit that one post to remove my user name?
:shock: I have no idea how that happened, but sorry, it's edited now.

I did put up some of my synopses in my gallery. :)
 
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panzergulo

canTANKERous individual
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duroc

Member
How about auditions?

I think auditions would just be to difficult and complicated to sort through, plus a system like that could easily be abused. It can be hard for people to make time for things in their lives right now, let alone attempting to go through the ins and outs of an audition process. I think similar problems could surface if a juried voting system were to come about, even though I very much like the idea of having a counter point to the Ursas and I think it'll need to be done at some point in time(and I believe a support group with qualified members is a great step toward this goal). Basically, we're going to have to start small here, and even though it'll probably hurt some feelings, I think having a qualification for membership is still in the best way to go.

It's nice to have a furry writing guild and it's nice to have a community of writers. But we do need to heavily focus on what can be done to get READERS. The problem I face (and others face) is that people read my porn, but not much else. And arguably, my non-porn is better quality than my porn.

I think PT pretty much nailed the idea that was in my head. It's not going to be a market, there are already places like that available for writers to post their work and establish readership.

I get that people want their stories read, but just simply writing and posting isn't going to garner readers. You have to push yourself, take risks with your writing, improve in the craft, and you have to put yourself out there--like here's an example. I see no link in this forum to your FA page. That's just one way of people stumbling across your work. If they don't see your writing, how can anyone read it? And getting readers is not only a self improvement system, but it's a give and take system. Readers are usually other writers. If you read, comment, favorite, critique, and generally support other writers, it will come back to you as long as you keep trying to improve. You can not just stay stagnant, post stories and expect people to read. And if you post porn, those readers are not the same readers that read non-porn. So you have to reach out to the non-porn reading audience.

But I'm getting way, way off track now. The idea in my head is not a market, but(like PT described)a supportive network of proven, qualified writers trying to promote quality fiction with anthropomorphic characters.
 

M. LeRenard

Is not French
Actually, what ArtSpots does now-a-days is to accept any and all applicants, but then include a separate audition system for artists to be granted what is essentially 'you are awesome' status (you get a little icon by your username). This promotes your work more, because once you get that status you suddenly get top billing (I'm not exactly sure how it works, but I think your work has a much better chance of showing up on the front page, and other things like that). So in this way, it's inclusive to anyone who wants to join, but it promotes improvement by giving you a goal to reach. And it's easier on the admins, because they don't have to go over every single new artist who applies to the site, and instead can concentrate on those who seriously wish to join in with the big dogs. You apply, submitting three pieces that demonstrate various things (they have a rubric, to avoid making style into an issue), they do a redline (the artists' version of a critique) and make a decision on whether or not you're welcome in the top leagues. And every artist has unlimited chances.
Now, I'd still prefer a bit more exclusivity, but if it turns out that's not going to work, this is an alternative. We could even do a sort of e-zine format where we collect all the really good works and post that monthly or bi-weekly on the front page, or something of that nature, so the casual browser always has somewhere to start.

Personally, I don't like the whole idea of 'publication credits' all that much. Mainly because it would be a little difficult to implement. For example, in my case, yeah, I've been published once, but God help me if I could actually get access to my work. Laurus is only published within the U. of NE, and even when I was there, getting hold of back issues was downright impossible (I had to go request one from the dean of the language department, and even then I couldn't keep it). And the website (which is hard to locate) doesn't seem to list all of the stories or all the issues, so I'm not finding my work there either. In short, I could tell you I've been published, but I have no way to prove it!
Not to mention, it takes months for even the smallest publishers to get back to those who've submitted, so if we turn someone down for not being published, they won't get another chance to apply until sometimes years later. That's just not a very effective way to run a website. Revenue comes from ads and traffic.

By the way... thanks so much, KatmanDu, for starting this thread. It's been brilliant so far, even if nothing ends up coming of it.
 

Poetigress

Panthera tigris libris
Not to mention, it takes months for even the smallest publishers to get back to those who've submitted, so if we turn someone down for not being published, they won't get another chance to apply until sometimes years later.

Assuming you only have one single work you're sending out, yeah, and that none of those publishers you're sending it to accept simultaneous submissions.

I think, again, it's a matter of conflicting visions -- I can certainly see the argument for making something that the largest number of people can participate in right off the bat, but for me personally, a lot of my concept hinges on trying to give writers something to work toward, so that joining is in itself an achievement, and being a member really means something beyond just "I write furry stuff." I could definitely support the audition idea, but I also agree with Duroc that that type of setup would make for a lot of extra work.
 

Altamont

The Bard of the Beasts
I think auditions would just be to difficult and complicated to sort through, plus a system like that could easily be abused. It can be hard for people to make time for things in their lives right now, let alone attempting to go through the ins and outs of an audition process. I think similar problems could surface if a juried voting system were to come about, even though I very much like the idea of having a counter point to the Ursas and I think it'll need to be done at some point in time(and I believe a support group with qualified members is a great step toward this goal). Basically, we're going to have to start small here, and even though it'll probably hurt some feelings, I think having a qualification for membership is still in the best way to go.



I think PT pretty much nailed the idea that was in my head. It's not going to be a market, there are already places like that available for writers to post their work and establish readership.



But I'm getting way, way off track now. The idea in my head is not a market, but(like PT described)a supportive network of proven, qualified writers trying to promote quality fiction with anthropomorphic characters.

Personally, I think the audition system would be far less complicated than you may be fearing, especially if we limit the number of applicants at any one time. If we only auditioned, say, ten or fifteen people a month, it shouldn;t be too difficult. And again, it would only apply to people who have no publishing history.

But you are right, starting small is definitely the way to go. I was just throwing out ideas that I think could help the idea grow down the line.

How about this, in regards to exclusivity. If nothing else, we (or perhaps "you", seeing as my qualifications may not be in line with what you guys have in mind) could at least set up an Aspiring Member Support area of the guild; I think that it would be unfair just to provide a mission statement and expect the writer to just go and get published (an exaggeration, of course, to make a point). I think one thing that the guild could do is help writers know what exactly can make a story good enough to be published.

By the way... thanks so much, KatmanDu, for starting this thread. It's been brilliant so far, even if nothing ends up coming of it.

I second that opinion :) It's been a long while since I've been able to partake in such intelligent discussion with any fellow writers, and I certainly can's recall doing much of it on the forums (with exception going perhaps to the 'I Suck' Thread).

And I just thought I'd say that even though I may not be the kind of qualified that some of the more experienced writers here are looking at in regards to the guild, I'm glad I've participated in this workshop. Not only has it reminded me of why I love writing in the first place, it has helped me further get to know an intelligent and amiable group of people, and a goal to aspire to and work for :)
 

nybx4life

A training artist
Now, because I personally believe there is some worth to this thread instead of hopeful what-ifs, shouldn't there be someone that personally notes down what is mentioned?

After all, this is somewhat a large concept, with each subsection needed to go on.
It's best to record what is said, so few repeats are given.
 

duroc

Member
Personally, I don't like the whole idea of 'publication credits' all that much. Mainly because it would be a little difficult to implement.

See, and to me, the publication credit is simple, cut and dry. Here's my issue with auditions. I just see it being abused, or it'll make people feel even more hurt in the long run. I mean, who's going to be responsible for the audition process? Is it the person who runs the site, or specific members, or all members? If it's the person running it, people will see it as that person playing favoritism depending on who gets in and who doesn't. If it's specific members making the calls, it'll come across as clique-ish. If it's every member, than I can see it as somebody's friend's friend's friend getting in, and we're right back where we started. A bunch of writers, and not everyone's there for the right reason. I guess we're screwed if we do and screwed if we don't.

Personally, I think the audition system would be far less complicated than you may be fearing

Please read above because I'm lazy. Thank you. :)

How about this, in regards to exclusivity. If nothing else, we (or perhaps "you", seeing as my qualifications may not be in line with what you guys have in mind) could at least set up an Aspiring Member Support area of the guild; I think that it would be unfair just to provide a mission statement and expect the writer to just go and get published (an exaggeration, of course, to make a point). I think one thing that the guild could do is help writers know what exactly can make a story good enough to be published.

And that was part of the original purpose. Look, if anybody wants to look at the idea I was thinking about, go take a look at the SFWA website.

www.sfwa.org

That site is not limited to just members. Yes, there is a members section, but parts of the site is open to all writers. Another thing that I would like to see is not only a forum exclusive to members, but also a forum open to all writers. My plan wasn't to have this specific writers club, but a site anyone can use. But yes, I'd still like to see a membership with qualified writers. This isn't about helping a small group of published writers, but helping anthropomorphic writing as a whole.

I feel like I'm totally not making myself understood. :|
 

jinxtigr

Feline Miscreant
I can cite professional publication- hell, I can cite worldwide professional publication as a writer- but it's as an AUDIO writer. I ran a couple pieces in 'The Absolute Sound', more than a decade ago.

If it's about getting into the decaying hulk of SF/fantasy short story markets or novel publication, I am absolutely not interested in dealing with it. I'd happily make an exception for say Sofawolf, but I feel they have enough people bugging them already and haven't inquired beyond the most basic pleasantries.

One thing about it, though- you can be comfortably certain that anyone who IS managing any form of career in the fringes of professional publication and doing the 'query, get lost in slushpile, copy out stack of MSS pages to send off to bored and overwhelmed agents yet again' dance is at least working hard at their career, and that is probably the key point here. They may just not HAVE a career in that sense- just the qualifications for one.

I'm curious about what constitutes pro publication- does nonfiction count?

However, I think it is sort of a grandfather clause, because the odds of even talented writers jumping on THAT bandwagon are nil with print in crisis. It's a dumb requirement if you want to bring any new people in.
 

Poetigress

Panthera tigris libris
Audio and electronic/online markets are considered publication, so the "print in crisis" aspect is a nonissue in that regard.

As to whether nonfiction would count in this case, that would be something to discuss. I think the concept of the site, though, is geared toward writers working in fiction, so if that's the case, I don't know if nonfiction publication could be considered for qualification.
 
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