Trans Rights Are Human Rights

[Fallowfox]

ASTA, remember, you're an adult man. You shouldn't be trying to antagonise 14 year olds over the internet.
If you discover you are upsetting people online, it's probably time to do the mature thing and step back.

If you do get pleasure and amusement from the knowledge you're upsetting children- it might be worth asking whether that's really something you want to spend the best years of your life doing, or whether you would respect another man who behaved in the same way.

 

[LightArrow]

Aside from maybe Yakamaru liking a few posts, none of the "trolls" have even posted in the positivity thread. Your gender fluidity appreciation thread (which is more or less dead at this point may I add) was spared as well. If you mean the LGBTQ+ one, no one aside from me has really touched it and the only sin I was guilty of was posting "Lol" or whatever.

If FAF had an actual troll problem, the moderation element would have dealt with it a long time ago.

What is even the point of this post

 

[otterpaws]

What is even the point of this post

what did I say ._.

 

[LightArrow]

what did I say ._.

I must learn from you, grasshopper.

 

[otterpaws]

I must learn from you, grasshopper.

I... did not say that

 

[LightArrow]

I... did not say that

That’s what I’m saying.

 

[ASTA]

ASTA, remember, you're an adult man. You shouldn't be trying to antagonise 14 year olds over the internet.
If you discover you are upsetting people online, it's probably time to do the mature thing and step back.

If responding to a post in a straightforward manner counts as "antagonizing" a 14 year old then I really don't know what to tell you. This sounds like a personal problem that you and six other users need to figure out for yourselves since this is about as "nice and warm" as I can be. I wish you all luck.

And from what I can gather, the only way that I'd stop upsetting people on FAF is to adopt a typical FAF user's psychological profile and worldview. That or I get banned.

Neither one of those things is likely to occur.

What is even the point of this post

You tell me.

 

[Toasty9399]

Before this thread possibly turns into a fight, which I hope not, I will say I agree.

19 pages later

 

[Toasty9399]

Yes, they are. Go ask the people in forum games what they were doing in the LAST THREAD like this one before it got locked. hell, ask @ben909 he was there.

They fill up everything in recent posts, and once one gets locked after two people leave the sites and other people get banned, ANOTHER ONE pops right back up.

I'm arguing this because I'm tired of you people slinging shit at each other, it's been going on for weeks now. THE DRAMA BULLSHIT INFECTS OTHER THREADS TOO. What do you think I'm arguing for? Just for fun? Do you think I get off on this?

Before the politics section got removed, I made a thread complaining about derailed political threads spanning the recent post section.
Guess what.
It got derailed.

 

[Tendo64]

I love scaring children tbh. It's my favorite pass time.

 

[Firuthi Dragovic]

This came up again? Y'know what, given what's been ruminating in my head for several days now I'll put in another affirmation to try and purge my mind, something that I hope doesn't wind up spicy but might:

"You have the right to fully understand your body, and while an expert can help, you're under no obligation to wait for them."

I file it under "standard of living" (which includes medical care) and "education" as the human rights declaration goes.

How, you may ask, is that even remotely spicy? Well... there's two parts and if any of this comes up word-salad-y, PLEASE clue me in so I can try to correct it.

One, the trauma a lot of trans people (trans folk? I'm not in a circumstance where I get exposed to the terms enough) experience. While giving diagnoses over the Internet is generally a BAD thing, everything in my brain has been screaming that it sounds an awful lot like some form of PTSD.... and what do you know, one of the symptoms is hypervigilance. AKA the whole "triggered" thing. I stumbled across C-PTSD recently due to something less related and... the repeated trauma basis seems to match, and it apparently comes up as something NEUROlogical, rather than PSYCHOlogical - pushing it into the realm of the body and not just "mental health". What's spicy about this, other than my lack of medical degree, is I have to insist on the "no obligation to wait" thing and press the idea of researching and understanding one's own condition despite the "no Internet medicine" taboo - my reason is that supposedly too many therapists still haven't caught on to why traditional therapies aren't as effective yet and waiting for them might be too late. (Unfortunately, one of the videos I saw on it says that you have to learn to understand and control your triggers yourself, and that lesson sounds too easy if you're not ACTIVELY IN THE GRIP OF A TRIGGER MOST OF THE TIME.)

The second.... let me put it this way. I tend to require something more solid to accept a lot of contexts. Have previously had to look up a couple conditions that probably fall under the "intersex" umbrella to make it easier to accept the whole trans thing. So... the spice here fits under "fully understand your body": my brain has been ruminating over the whole sports debacle, so is it a bad sign that I specifically tried to look up cases of a woman having the skeletal build of a man, to try and shut down the kinds of basis that transphobes like to use for sports exclusion?

 

[quoting_mungo]

my brain has been ruminating over the whole sports debacle, so is it a bad sign that I specifically tried to look up cases of a woman having the skeletal build of a man, to try and shut down the kinds of basis that transphobes like to use for sports exclusion?

Sadly, these people don’t care; they can and do attack cis women who have what they consider to be an “unfair advantage” already. I don’t have any real memory for names, but there was a lot of drama a number of years back over a female athlete who produced atypical amounts of testosterone (I think?), with people demanding that she take medication to counter her natural production of testosterone to bring it down to “normal” levels.

I understand, sorta, why these things come up. Humans are a sexually dimorphic species and we’ve decided to pave a way for women into sports by separating men’s and women’s sports. And that’s alright on its own. The problem comes when people start hand-wringing about this kind of thing.

Not every trans woman will also have the athletic potential required for high-level professional sports. Not every trans woman that does will have an interest in going for a career in sports. It gets especially rich when you see people bring this hand-wringing to children’s sports. Before puberty, the advantage from sexual dimorphism is minuscule if any.

If you (gen) want a sport that’s artificially made “fair,” get into horse racing. Adding weight to horses to (ostensibly) give every horse in the race a fighting chance is the name of the game there. Unless you want to do the same with human athletes, you kind of have to accept that individual potential varies and you can’t expect “fairness.”

 

[Charleslr'93]

So that this thread doesn't get shut down, can we keep things civil, thanks? Not gonna help anybody if this devolves into a squabble over what should be pretty obvious.

Too late for that, folks. I can see the negativity and I can feel the discomfort even through my phone screen. Posts like this should not be created. trans are people, they have rights. It's a given, and people should already know this without posting about it and possibly creating grounds on witch negative feedback or discomfort will arise from.

 

[Slytherin Umbreon]

Too late for that, folks. I can see the negativity and I can feel the discomfort even through my phone screen. Posts like this should not be created. trans are people, they have rights. It's a given, and people should already know this without posting about it and possibly creating grounds on witch negative feedback or discomfort will arise from.

Um, no.
How about blaming the people causing the actual problem instead of trying to make this weird spin.

 

[ClumsyWitch]

[...]trans are people, they have rights. It's a given[...]

You're right with a that. But if dumbfuckery wouldn't be a consistent problem throughout this fandom as well as, for the most part, society in general, we wouldn't need threads like this.
Now very obviously, we absolutely do need this.

 

[Lucyfur]

they have rights. It's a given,

Ah I wish this statement was true but you see there are countries like America where that is not the case.
And when I say that I mean that we do not have equal human rights like everyone else does.

 

[Ovidia Dragoness]

Ah I wish this statement was true but you see there are countries like America where that is not the case.
And when I say that I mean that we do not have equal human rights like everyone else does.

This

 

[Tendo64]

Before puberty, the advantage from sexual dimorphism is minuscule if any.

I think I read somewhere that even adult transwomen who medically transitioned at an early age have little to no advantage over cis women, too, if they regularly took puberty blockers and hormones. It's a fairly nuanced thing... but people say to just ban them altogether. And even say looking into it is a "waste of money" and to just assume all transwomen have an advantage because "xy chromosomes equal stronger", which is stupid because science is never about assuming things, it's about testing things even when they seem likely because new evidence can appear with better technology and more precise studies.

These people don't actually care about keeping the competition fair, it's just another excuse they pull so they can try to justify them mistreating trans people because inconveniencing this marginal group they despise for no reason brings them some weird sadistic joy.

It's so weird to me how someone saying "hi, please call me a woman and call me a she" is enough to make people go ballistic to the point of doing everything in their power to hurt her.

 

[Charleslr'93]

Um, no.
How about blaming the people causing the actual problem instead of trying to make this weird spin.

My point exactly. Blame other people, fighting the fire with fire makes a bigger fire. I'm not saying your wrong. Fucks sake, that's not the point I'm trying to make. The point I'm making, is that this is already turning into a shitstorm. Who da hell said that I'm against trans, or that I'm denying your rights...? I'm saying this post is already turning into a uncomfortable situation. Don't shoot the messenger...

 

[quoting_mungo]

I think I read somewhere that even adult transwomen who medically transitioned at an early age have little to no advantage over cis women, too, if they regularly took puberty blockers and hormones. It's a fairly nuanced thing... but people say to just ban them altogether. And even say looking into it is a "waste of money" and to just assume all transwomen have an advantage because "xy chromosomes equal stronger", which is stupid because science is never about assuming things, it's about testing things even when they seem likely because new evidence can appear with better technology and more precise studies.

These people don't actually care about keeping the competition fair, it's just another excuse they pull so they can try to justify them mistreating trans people because inconveniencing this marginal group they despise for no reason brings them some weird sadistic joy.

It's so weird to me how someone saying "hi, please call me a woman and call me a she" is enough to make people go ballistic to the point of doing everything in their power to hurt her.

Also very true; as access to puberty blockers is nowhere near what it should be in a lot of the world it didn’t occur to me to specifically make that point.

I suspect a lot of transphobia rests on fear of the unknown and/or being unable to understand the experience. Things they can’t wrap your head around scare a lot of people, as well as lead to people absorbing lies without realizing that it’s the bigoted mess that it is. Which, of course, doesn’t excuse being a dick about it. It doesn’t even mean that pushing back against transphobia should be done with kid gloves. I just don’t know that it’s very productive to ascribe a motivation of cruelty for cruelty’s sake to anyone without very strong evidence.

 

[Firuthi Dragovic]

It doesn’t even mean that pushing back against transphobia should be done with kid gloves.

.....somehow, your sentence ran across my brain as "don't be soft with a transphobe". So I feel the need to add something just to calm my brain down.

I would rather treat "pushing back against transphobia" as if trying to get people out of any other toxic doctrine, and my understanding of getting someone to leave toxic doctrines is that you are going to HAVE to softball it a bit. These are people who don't trust trans people after having their fears or lack of comprehension exploited with all the bigoted lies. Even if the doctrine itself is shameful, the fact that they were afraid or didn't understand in the first place is not. Playing hardball on the whole subject is likely going to push them RIGHT back into transphobia because you've just fulfilled their programming - thus the toxic doctrine winds up more comforting to them.

Take "pushing back against transphobia" seriously if that's what you actually meant to say. Shaming a transphobe strikes me as horribly counterproductive in this fight.

(There's a part of me that wants to find hormone therapies that help cis people, that were only discovered through trans people - JUST so I have demonstratable proof on hand that transphobia harms cis people. Actual ways to induce the break that could get these people pulled out of the doctrine might not work as effectively though.)

 

[Lucyfur]

.....somehow, your sentence ran across my brain as "don't be soft with a transphobe". So I feel the need to add something just to calm my brain down.

I would rather treat "pushing back against transphobia" as if trying to get people out of any other toxic doctrine, and my understanding of getting someone to leave toxic doctrines is that you are going to HAVE to softball it a bit. These are people who don't trust trans people after having their fears or lack of comprehension exploited with all the bigoted lies. Even if the doctrine itself is shameful, the fact that they were afraid or didn't understand in the first place is not. Playing hardball on the whole subject is likely going to push them RIGHT back into transphobia because you've just fulfilled their programming - thus the toxic doctrine winds up more comforting to them.

Take "pushing back against transphobia" seriously if that's what you actually meant to say. Shaming a transphobe strikes me as horribly counterproductive in this fight.

(There's a part of me that wants to find hormone therapies that help cis people, that were only discovered through trans people - JUST so I have demonstratable proof on hand that transphobia harms cis people. Actual ways to induce the break that could get these people pulled out of the doctrine might not work as effectively though.)

personally I think they can either accept us or we throw them out.
We should have no quarter given to transphobes around these parts nor should they be given the platform to utter a single line of their bigotry.

 

[Firuthi Dragovic]

personally I think they can either accept us or we throw them out.
We should have no quarter given to transphobes around these parts nor should they be given the platform to utter a single line of their bigotry.

Fair enough with this place specifically given some of the... past incidents. I always forget to draw the line between general practice and what's gone on with this forum in particular.

This forum is NOT the best area to try to deprogram someone. And my understanding of deprogramming is... that it generally can't be forced outside of a dedicated therapy setting, which this place is most decidedly NOT meant to be. So my above statements are much more generalized when it comes to pushing back.

I think I'm going to leave it at that.

 

[ASTA]

personally I think they can either accept us or we throw them out.

 

[Charleslr'93]

personally I think they can either accept us or we throw them out.
We should have no quarter given to transphobes around these parts nor should they be given the platform to utter a single line of their bigotry.

And you think hating on all CIS people is the answer? What's that saying..? Tea Kettle calling the frying pan black..?

I'd say that's bigotry as well. Hating all doesn't do you any good. To defend the BLM movement a bit, oddly enough.. here's an example. not all black people are bad. Just like not all white people are bad. There's bad seeds in every single type of life form, hating all just because you see one bad seed here and there act up, doesn't mean they all are out to get you. Just like hating all police officers.. that's basically assuming all civilians are good. Are they? No. Are all police good? No. Do you see my point..? Hating all is not the answer.. it just fuels the fire. Possibly even making the fire bigger. Gives the slimeball scum of people in the wrong more verbal ammo to sling your way. Show your good side. Help others understand you want to fit in. Killing your enemies with kindness is more effective than you think. Just like a bully. Don't give them more ammo to fight you with. Stand up, be confident in who you are, but in a firm way. Easier said than done, but it is possible. I believe in peace.
War just makes the human race weaker, it devided us up more and more. Like a single twig. Its easy to break in half on it's own. But have a big bundle of twigs.. then it's a bigger challenge to break in half. do you see my point here?