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Trans Rights Are Human Rights

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Ovidia Dragoness

Udder Derg
Banned
And you think hating on all CIS people is the answer? What's that saying..? Tea Kettle calling the frying pan black..?

I'd say that's bigotry as well. Hating all doesn't do you any good. To defend the BLM movement a bit, oddly enough.. here's an example. not all black people are bad. Just like not all white people are bad. There's bad seeds in every single type of life form, hating all just because you see one bad seed here and there act up, doesn't mean they all are out to get you. Just like hating all police officers.. that's basically assuming all civilians are good. Are they? No. Are all police good? No. Do you see my point..? Hating all is not the answer.. it just fuels the fire. Possibly even making the fire bigger. Gives the slimeball scum of people in the wrong more verbal ammo to sling your way. Show your good side. Help others understand you want to fit in. Killing your enemies with kindness is more effective than you think. Just like a bully. Don't give them more ammo to fight you with. Stand up, be confident in who you are, but in a firm way. Easier said than done, but it is possible. I believe in peace.
War just makes the human race weaker, it devided us up more and more. Like a single twig. Its easy to break in half on it's own. But have a big bundle of twigs.. then it's a bigger challenge to break in half. do you see my point here?
God you infer a lot from someone's posts. I litterally see no words saying hate all cis people.
 

Lucyfur

Free Ovidia
And you think hating on all CIS people is the answer? What's that saying..? Tea Kettle calling the frying pan black..?

I'd say that's bigotry as well. Hating all doesn't do you any good. To defend the BLM movement a bit, oddly enough.. here's an example. not all black people are bad. Just like not all white people are bad. There's bad seeds in every single type of life form, hating all just because you see one bad seed here and there act up, doesn't mean they all are out to get you. Just like hating all police officers.. that's basically assuming all civilians are good. Are they? No. Are all police good? No. Do you see my point..? Hating all is not the answer.. it just fuels the fire. Possibly even making the fire bigger. Gives the slimeball scum of people in the wrong more verbal ammo to sling your way. Show your good side. Help others understand you want to fit in. Killing your enemies with kindness is more effective than you think. Just like a bully. Don't give them more ammo to fight you with. Stand up, be confident in who you are, but in a firm way. Easier said than done, but it is possible. I believe in peace.
War just makes the human race weaker, it devided us up more and more. Like a single twig. Its easy to break in half on it's own. But have a big bundle of twigs.. then it's a bigger challenge to break in half. do you see my point here?
I said transphobes not cis...
So uhhh yeah you made a lot of words to grab at something I didn’t say
 

quoting_mungo

Well-Known Member
.....somehow, your sentence ran across my brain as "don't be soft with a transphobe". So I feel the need to add something just to calm my brain down.
Yes and no, I guess. Nothing good will come of treating the matter like the anti-trans talking points have merit. Be firm on the fact that their words/actions are wrong and harmful. That’s the sense in which there needs to be little coddling.
Doesn’t mean any of the pushing back needs to be done with aggression or by demonizing people, either, certainly. I’m all for offering people an out; “you might not have known this, but...” and so on.

It also depends on how the individual chooses to use what platform they have. JK Rowling published a frightfully transphobic letter/article last year. She’s a rich woman whom a lot of people look up to due to her success as an author. If she chooses to use her platform and privilege to punch down at trans people, the (public) pushback needs to be stronger than you might need for that aunt who just reposted something transphobic on Facebook in relatively good faith out of ignorance. Does that make sense? The more harm a person is in a position to do, the less space there is to ease them through their fears and ignorance. Protecting their feelings at the expense of trans people is just revictimizing the victims at that point.
 

Fallowfox

Are we moomin, or are we dancer?
And you think hating on all CIS people is the answer? What's that saying..? Tea Kettle calling the frying pan black..?

I don't think Lucy suggested hating cisgender people.

To my knowledge comments insulting people's gender already count as bullying according to the site's rules- and people who do this would, by the book, be thrown out if they kept doing it.

But there's a bit of a culture on the forum that bullying is okay and that the real problem is when people complain that they don't like being bullied, as you can see from these responses to users who were bullied.

"bUllYinG sNt cOOl"

Sometimes being nice means providing criticism when someone's being annoying constantly

What a bunch of snowflakes
 

Tendo64

Siamese Weeb
personally I think they can either accept us or we throw them out.
We should have no quarter given to transphobes around these parts nor should they be given the platform to utter a single line of their bigotry.
I agree.

There's people who are clearly just uneducated but can be reasoned with and there's people who seek out trans people in comment sections or forum threads so they can harass them.

Transphobic people are like anti-vax people. They shut down at conflicting information. They outright refuse to read articles that contradict what they believe and call them "fake science and sjw propaganda." I know this because of how many people I've tried to educate, only for them to completely ignore me and outright tell me "I'm not reading that, it's leftist garbage, I'm right and you're wrong and you're a girl kys," or they don't respond and continue to be transphobic to other people like our conversation never happened.

Take for example, my former friend, whos evidence amounted to a tumblr post without sources from some random person who was not a medical professional, which contained all the classic, easily debunkable transphobe arguments like "but chromosomes and estrogen/testosterone!!!", and then said all my articles drawn from credible sources backed with sources of scientific studies were fake and she wasn't going to read them. Replace "tumblr" with "facebook." Sound familiar?

There's no arguing with these people. There's no reasoning. What they spread is hurting people and they, like you said, don't need a platform. There's a point where you need to say "fuck off" because they're spreading misinformation and are directly contributing to the transphobia that plagues people and keeps them from having equal rights.
 
But there's a bit of a culture on the forum that bullying is okay and that the real problem is when people complain that they don't like being bullied, as you can see from these responses to users who were bullied.
But why complain about being bullied instead of taking part in the huge massive internet movement all the grown-ups are telling us to do and "BLOCK REPORT AND MOVE ON." That's my two cents.
 

Fallowfox

Are we moomin, or are we dancer?
But why complain about being bullied instead of taking part in the huge massive internet movement all the grown-ups are telling us to do and "BLOCK REPORT AND MOVE ON." That's my two cents.

There's a very simple and unfortunate answer.
People did report the bullying, but it wasn't stopped- so they ended up posting in public in the hope that other users would back them up, and that this would draw staff attention to the issue.

It's difficult to state this in a way that the staff won't perceive as critical of course- but it's the honest answer.

It is obviously very delicate to discuss.
It is also worth noting that when bullies say 'if you don't like it just block me', that this often just means they move on to their next victim.
 

Tendo64

Siamese Weeb
But why complain about being bullied instead of taking part in the huge massive internet movement all the grown-ups are telling us to do and "BLOCK REPORT AND MOVE ON." That's my two cents.
"Being bullied? Just ignore it"
Oh yes, good argument. Because ignoring bullies has totally been shown to work and not just make people try harder and harder to push your buttons. It also totally stops those bullies from spreading misinformation and lies about trans people, which furthers societal stigma and makes it harder for trans people to be seen as... y'know, people. Those people don't just stop existing the second you block them. As Fallowfox said, they pick another target, and some of them even circumvent blocks.

And then you have situations like, say, a certain person on YouTube who made videos on trans people he thought weren't "trans enough" that got millions of views, and then those people get literal thousands of people in their DMs sending them death threats and telling them they're terrible people who deserve to die. It even proceeded to bleed into real life where real life people would spot them on the streets and hurt insults their way. Blocking didn't exactly do those people very good, now did it?

But, then again, I shouldn't expect empathy or critical thinking from someone who has "supergendered" in their signature like it's still 2016 and attack helicopter jokes are still considered funny. You sound like the exact kind of person we're talking about here.
 

Mr. Fox

Cheeseburger Pride
After reading over this thread it is a little surprising how many are confusing human rights with individual rights, and rights over privilege and choice. Not that I have the answers for any of them, just an observation.
 
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Fallowfox

Are we moomin, or are we dancer?
To clarify my earlier post I'm going to ping @quoting_mungo as she was a previous staff member.

Quoting mungo will remember that some behaviours, such as posting youtube videos containing hateful content, rarely resulted in staff action against the user- and she will be able to clarify that this reticence to remove the content and users spreading it from the site resulted from some ambiguity in the rules at that time and strain on staff ability to respond to a very large volume of said content being posted between 2015 and 2018.

eventually these problems were fixed, after consultation and clarification of the rules, and the community benefited from those higher standards.

But why complain about being bullied instead of taking part in the huge massive internet movement all the grown-ups are telling us to do and "BLOCK REPORT AND MOVE ON." That's my two cents.

I suppose an adjunct I should mention, I repeatedly get quoted or referred to negatively by users I have blocked.
I don't know whether other users experience this also?

Personally it doesn't bother me that much because I have a lot of other things that my mind is taken up with, but if I was say, a 14 year old who was consistently being quoted by people who were laughing about how silly they thought my gender identity was, then you know- 'block and move on' might not be such an effective strategy to stop the behaviour.
 
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Flamingo

Administrator
Staff member
Administrator
People did report the bullying, but it wasn't stopped
:) our privacy policy prevents me from revealing action taken against users, but I'm sure if you asked nicely someone would be happy to air their grievances in the opposite direction.
 

Fallowfox

Are we moomin, or are we dancer?
:) our privacy policy prevents me from revealing action taken against users, but I'm sure if you asked nicely someone would be happy to air their grievances in the opposite direction.

I'm not exactly sure what you mean by 'opposite direction'?
People who have been reported, but have not had action taken against them, are not made aware of reports.

I think some users feel it is unfair on them when users they've made negative comments about complain that they're being bullied- they feel they're being unfairly accused of being bullies.
By contrast, others openly delight in the fact that they've upset somebody, posting jeering memes and gifs to see whether they can cause further unhappiness.
I actually think the best resolution would be for staff to talk to them and explain why upsetting other users, or making insinuations about their gender, isn't very nice.

Because if the staff do take action against them, the drift I get is they just end up believing that everything is a conspiracy against them and they haven't done anything wrong, rather than changing the behaviour. It's a particular problem because making jaded comments about people's gender has become a politicised topic, so some users end up thinking that any effort to prevent it represents politicisation of the forum.

You can probably see my point if you look at the posts I quoted, talking about how people are whiners or snowflakes for complaining about 'bUllYinG'.
The fact this is intended to upset transgender users who don't really enjoy being insulted, is pretty clear- but I gather it's difficult for staff to take action against those specific posts because while it's clear they're intended to harass, they may not be explicit enough to violate site rules (I'm guessing that's it anyway).
 
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quoting_mungo

Well-Known Member
To clarify my earlier post I'm going to ping @quoting_mungo as she was a previous staff member.

Quoting mungo will remember that some behaviours, such as posting youtube videos containing hateful content, rarely resulted in staff action against the user- and she will be able to clarify that this reticence to remove the content and users spreading it from the site resulted from some ambiguity in the rules at that time and strain on staff ability to respond to a very large volume of said content being posted between 2015 and 2018.

eventually these problems were fixed, after consultation and clarification of the rules, and the community benefited from those higher standards.
In fairness I had very little involvement with the forums prior to the mass resignation of forum staff. When I personally was on forum staff I’d try to steer people towards Making Better Choices in regards to hateful content, which dovetailed decently well with me being CoC admin on mainsite. A lot of the time, on forums, I’d be doing this by posting in threads saying “can we please not?”

It’s my personal opinion/experience that standards on malicious speech have gotten slightly more forgiving since I left, but that’s a matter of degree. I highly doubt there’s any desire or intent on the part of current staff to let FAF reach its old toxic lows.

Regarding where the thread’s been going the last little bit: Saying that this thread should not have been made is not a good take no matter how you turn it. In theory @Attaman could effectively yeet problem individuals to some degree by blocking them, or at least could have with how the block system used to work. Whether it would work the same now I don’t really know. But it doesn’t change the underlying issue that a lot of digs at minority members are managing to stay juuust on the acceptable side of the line.

“Shut up instead of asking for staff to affirm a minority population that’s been getting hostility” isn’t a side I’d want to be on. The hostility and bad takes aren’t anything that we want to see, either. Nobody wants to see the conflict (except a select few who thrive on stirring up shit). But refraining from asking for a change because bad actors want to take the opportunity to turn it into a shit show isn’t how things change for the better in the long run.

Ultimately, complaining about where you think the thread is going or has gone, without actually engaging with the thread topic in a meaningful way, is disruptive and counterproductive. At best it’s the same sort of misguided support that DADT was. For all that I generally try to assume the best of people until worse is proven, I’m having a hard time seeing it as anything but deliberate derailment, though. If it’s not a deliberate attempt to deplatform trans users and their supporters, it at least does a pretty good job of looking like it is.
 
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Fallowfox

Are we moomin, or are we dancer?
In fairness I had very little involvement with the forums prior to the mass resignation of forum staff. When I personally was on forum staff I’d try to steer people towards Making Better Choices in regards to hateful content, which dovetailed decently well with me being CoC admin on mainsite. A lot of the time, on forums, I’d be doing this by posting in threads saying “can we please not?”

It’s my personal opinion/experience that standards on malicious speech have gotten slightly more forgiving since I left, but that’s a matter of degree. I highly doubt there’s any desire or intent on the part of current staff to let FAF reach its old toxic lows.

Regarding where the thread’s been going the last little bit: Saying that this thread should not have been made is not a good take no matter how you turn it. In theory @Attaman could effectively yeet problem individuals to some degree by blocking them, or at least could have with how the block system used to work. Whether it would work the same now I don’t really know. But it doesn’t change the underlying issue that a lot of digs at minority members are managing to stay juuust on the acceptable side of the line.

“Shut up instead of asking for staff to affirm a minority population that’s been getting hostility” isn’t a side I’d want to be on. The hostility and bad takes aren’t anything that we want to see, either. Nobody wants to see the conflict (except a select few who thrive on stirring up shit). But refraining from asking for a change because bad actors want to take the opportunity to turn it into a shot show isn’t how things change for the better in the long run.

Ultimately, complaining about where you think the thread is going or has gone, without actually engaging with the thread topic in a meaningful way, is disruptive and counterproductive. At best it’s the same sort of misguided support that DADT was. For all that I generally try to assume the best of people until worse is proven, I’m having a hard time seeing it as anything but deliberate derailment, though. If it’s not a deliberate attempt to deplatform trans users and their supporters, it at least does a pretty good job of looking like it is.

I remember taking screenshots of posts I reported in September 2018, because I got so exhausted being told that the real problem was that nobody was reporting harmful content.
 

Frank Gulotta

Send us your floppy
I got a notification saying you quoted me, but the quote doesn't appear in your post, so you may have deleted it by accident.
You quoted an ancient comment I made by which I still stand. You should know which one, and I would normally not be touching these radioactive threads with a ten feet pole

So, what's not true with what I said?
 

Fallowfox

Are we moomin, or are we dancer?
You quoted an ancient comment I made by which I still stand. You should know which one, and I would normally not be touching these radioactive threads with a ten feet pole

So, what's not true with what I said?
If you mean the quote 'Sometimes being nice means providing criticism when someone's being annoying constantly'
the posts you defended have been removed from the forum.
If I remember correctly the staff deleted them.

I brought this scenario up, simply to convey to Charleslr'93 that sometimes bullying of transgender individuals had occurred, and that the staff removing this content is normal.
Charleslr'93 seemed to think Lucyfur's suggestion meant she was 'hating on all CIS people', so I just wanted to show him that it's already the policy that the staff aim to pursue- and that clearly cisgender people like myself aren't being hated on as a result of that.

I think we have a bit of a problem with users thinking that staff removing bullying comments towards transgender people is unfair, or- bizarrely- that it means they hate people who are not trans.
and clearly some transgender users have said they feel nasty comments are still made- and that 'just block and report' hasn't solved everything.

In that situation I think we should just try to listen and understand better- because we'll make everybody feel better if we can show we are willing to be understanding.
 

Frank Gulotta

Send us your floppy
If you mean the quote 'Sometimes being nice means providing criticism when someone's being annoying constantly'
the posts you defended have been removed from the forum.
If I remember correctly the staff deleted them.

I brought this scenario up, simply to convey to Charleslr'93 that sometimes bullying of transgender individuals had occurred, and that the staff removing this content is normal.
Charleslr'93 seemed to think Lucyfur's suggestion meant she was 'hating on all CIS people', so I just wanted to show him that it's already the policy that the staff aim to pursue- and that clearly cisgender people like myself aren't being hated on as a result of that.

I think we have a bit of a problem with users thinking that staff removing bullying comments towards transgender people is unfair, or- bizarrely- that it means they hate people who are not trans.
No idea who that is and I frankly don't care about any of that. I would appreciate if you could not drag me into drama, especially as I'm recovering from coronavirus.
 

Fallowfox

Are we moomin, or are we dancer?
No idea who that is and I frankly don't care about any of that. I would appreciate if you could not drag me into drama, especially as I'm recovering from coronavirus.

I'm not forcing you to post. I wish you a full recovery. In the future I will alter the BB code of older quotes by deleting the reference code, so that you do not receive a notification from them.
 

Charleslr'93

Well-Known Member
I said transphobes not cis...
So uhhh yeah you made a lot of words to grab at something I didn’t say
I suppose I'm assuming you think all CIS people are transphobic or anti trans, that's how you came off as sounding like. No, we are all individuals, like trans people.

I apologize.
 

quoting_mungo

Well-Known Member
I remember taking screenshots of posts I reported in September 2018, because I got so exhausted being told that the real problem was that nobody was reporting harmful content.
I honestly can’t recall much in the way of specifics of what was going on then, or if I even was very active at the time, being that I resigned in December 2017.

Some of what’s been going on since has definitely been things that would have gotten at the very least an in-thread “this is not how we treat each other” from me pre-resignation. But I will grudgingly accept that conduct rulings are always going to be a sticky matter and it’s no longer my call.

I don’t want to think that a “hey guys, a reminder that trans people are people and real and valid” from site management should be necessary. It being needed says nothing good about, well, anything. At the same time, the pushback this thread has gotten clearly shows that there’s attitudes present that might be helped by such a statement. All I want in the end is for people to not be deliberately nasty to each other, yanno?
 

luffy

Administrator
Staff member
Administrator
I'm not exactly sure what you mean by 'opposite direction'?
They're saying you're complaining about us not doing anything but if you asked the right people theyd complain about being falsely accused for harassment and action taken. Cause thats how it goes.

People don't see us doing anything because of how our punishments are tiered, so they complain we don't do anything, and we cant defend or explain ourselves because of privacy policy. But if one of the frequently reported users rhat people think don't get any action taken against them were asked about it, they'd complain about all the unjustified harassment/other warnings they get.

Each side is complaining about the other constantly and I sit here like "If only they knew..." lol
 

Fallowfox

Are we moomin, or are we dancer?
They're saying you're complaining about us not doing anything but if you asked the right people theyd complain about being falsely accused for harassment and action taken. Cause thats how it goes.

People don't see us doing anything because of how our punishments are tiered, so they complain we don't do anything, and we cant defend or explain ourselves because of privacy policy. But if one of the frequently reported users rhat people think don't get any action taken against them were asked about it, they'd complain about all the unjustified harassment/other warnings they get.

Each side is complaining about the other constantly and I sit here like "If only they knew..." lol

Of course, if somebody is being warned by the staff for breaking rules about hatred, then their position shouldn't be regarded as a 'side' anyway.

From the perspective of average users, all we can see is whether the bullying behaviour ceases or continues.
If you look at page 19 you'll see that a user who says that transphobia shouldn't be tolerated- simply furaffinity's official position- is met with jeering gifs- posted by another user who has a long history of trying to upset them.

I'm posting a screenshot here with the username removed.

This kind of behaviour isn't covered by the rules, and the people doing it have managed to get the staff recognising their behaviour as 'the other side', instead of simply being bullying.


I honestly can’t recall much in the way of specifics of what was going on then, or if I even was very active at the time, being that I resigned in December 2017.

Some of what’s been going on since has definitely been things that would have gotten at the very least an in-thread “this is not how we treat each other” from me pre-resignation. But I will grudgingly accept that conduct rulings are always going to be a sticky matter and it’s no longer my call.

I don’t want to think that a “hey guys, a reminder that trans people are people and real and valid” from site management should be necessary. It being needed says nothing good about, well, anything. At the same time, the pushback this thread has gotten clearly shows that there’s attitudes present that might be helped by such a statement. All I want in the end is for people to not be deliberately nasty to each other, yanno?

In many ways I feel that the folk who end up making a derisive attitude towards transgender people a defining part of their identity are themselves victims, because it surely isn't something that makes their life better or happier.
It's kinda unhappiness breeding unhappiness.
 
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luffy

Administrator
Staff member
Administrator
If you look at page 19 you'll see that a user who says that transphobia shouldn't be tolerated- simply furaffinity's official position- is met with jeering gifs- posted by another user who has a long history of trying to upset them.
I'm not trying to turn this thread into an argument about protocol, but if you are met with an immature user, then you're supposed to be the mature one and block communication with that user. If they contact or engage with you after that (quoting included - report it), we'll take action against them as long as you report it and it's not a third-party report.

4.1 Penalties​

Failure to abide by the content of this document may result in the following penalties. ("You" refers to you and all accounts you own/operate):
  • 1st Level Offense: You will receive a Warning Notice.
  • 2nd Level Offense: You will be Temporarily Suspended for 1 day.
  • 3rd Level Offense: You will be Temporarily Suspended for 1 week.
  • 4th Level Offense: You will be Temporarily Suspended for 1 month and will receive a Final Warning to cease violating the relevant section.
  • 5th Level Offense: You will be Permanently Banned from using Fur Affinity's services. Any future accounts you create will also be Permanently Banned.

Thus, it's safe to assume that anyone you have submitted a valid report against is on their way to being punished more severely should it seem like they are not having action taken against them. They do more bad things? Report them more, and they get more punishment.

We are not here to babysit threads and watch people have little catfights with each other. We are here to ensure that the policies that we have are enforced. We have queues of hundreds of tickets a week that we tackle with much more harmful content in them.

If we took action on every single tiny quarrel or passive aggressive post, it would mean mini moderating at an insanely micro level and also that we would have to perceive a user's intentions in some cases. User says, "Oh, screw you!" and a third party reports it but not the person the comment is aimed toward? We don't know if the user is friends with the person they were engaging and can't assume that they aren't being sarcastic.

Anyway, I'm shutting down discussion of how our policies are handled and leaving this thread to its original purpose. I am asking that no one derails this thread again by posting more about what I've mentioned. If you want, you can make a new thread for this or just submit a ticket.

Thank you!

** Edit - please note I am specifically referring to harassment. Transphobia and other malicious content are not tolerated and will be handled appropriately no matter who reports it.
 
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KD142000

Leather-clad Lobo
Too late for that, folks. I can see the negativity and I can feel the discomfort even through my phone screen. Posts like this should not be created. trans are people, they have rights. It's a given, and people should already know this without posting about it and possibly creating grounds on witch negative feedback or discomfort will arise from.
Posts like...what? Mine?
The kind that say 'trans rights are human rights' is an obvious fact?

Don't really understand what's wrong with my post, if you were referring to it.
 
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