• Fur Affinity Forums are governed by Fur Affinity's Rules and Policies. Links and additional information can be accessed in the Site Information Forum.

Trans Rights Are Human Rights

Status
Not open for further replies.

quoting_mungo

Well-Known Member
Posts like...what? Mine?
The kind that say 'trans rights are human rights' is an obvious fact?

Don't really understand what's wrong with my post, if you were referring to it.
Pretty sure they were referring to the thread as a whole. I wouldn’t worry about it; it’s a bad take and prioritizes bystanders’ comfort over supporting trans and non-binary users.
 

contemplationistwolf

The Restless Maverick
God, these moral inquisitors are annoying as hell!
Look! There were two threads already that were honestly focused on validating and supporting trans people, and which were running along perfectly well until they died because people got bored of how peaceful they were. If you don't turn those threads into these moronic moral inquisitions against people who aren't really any threat to trans people, they'll run along just fine along their stated purpose. Unfortunately, some people seem to be pretty desperate to do just that ... and they do it very dishonestly, taking out all nuance and context, and wildly misrepresenting things, all for the sake painting a maximally negative picture of the targets they are trying to prosecute.

To the moral inquisitors, get this through your skulls (assuming your intents are honest)! You aren't fighting neo-nazis, alt-righters or bigots. You are hounding centrists, libertarians and the mildest of conservatives! Also, you are being a complete detriment to the causes you proclaim to be fighting for!
 

Charleslr'93

Well-Known Member
Posts like...what? Mine?
The kind that say 'trans rights are human rights' is an obvious fact?

Don't really understand what's wrong with my post, if you were referring to it.

I'm not saying your wrong. I'm saying that this post is making people argue and bicker bitterly. I'm not saying your wrong, you have excellent points. but this post itself, is making people devide up and argue against each other. that's what I'm trying to get at. Does that make sense? I'm not trying to knock one against you or saying fuck trans people. that's not what I'm saying at all. I'm just pointing out that this post is deviding up what is supposed to be family. We are supposed to love each other and support each other and have each other's backs regardless of our personal opinions or identity descriptions. But now everyone is arguing and being in negative moods.
 

quoting_mungo

Well-Known Member
I’d just like to point out that there are “leftists” who hold transphobic beliefs. There are transphobic “feminists.” There are transphobic queer people. To suggest that someone being less than a right-wing extremist should shield them from being called on making transphobic statements is not making life safer for trans* people. It’s implicitly saying that trans* issues are secondary to the issues where you agree with these people.

Not everyone who says something transphobic is a die-hard transphobe. The people who spend their time trying to undermine trans* rights are very good at making their talking points seem reasonable. People for whom these issues aren’t personally relevant may not have the knowledge to recognize that these arguments are bullshit and are being pushed in bad faith. And that’s okay. Everyone can’t know everything.

B U T

It is at the very least a red flag when someone is called on making a transphobic statement and doubles down on it. It is at the very least a red flag when someone is called on making a transphobic statement and isn’t willing to apologize and/or learn. We had users in this thread who asked questions about how specific statements are transphobic. That’s cool! We had users in this thread who admitted to not being well read on the subject and politely asked for further reading to confirm another user’s claim. That’s cool!

If you’re not willing to learn, you’re not entitled to a free pass just because you say “I’m not a transphobe, honest!” Nor are you entitled to a free pass if your friends repeat that line. People are apprehensive because your words don’t jive with your actions.
 

contemplationistwolf

The Restless Maverick
I’d just like to point out that there are “leftists” who hold transphobic beliefs. There are transphobic “feminists.” There are transphobic queer people. To suggest that someone being less than a right-wing extremist should shield them from being called on making transphobic statements is not making life safer for trans* people. It’s implicitly saying that trans* issues are secondary to the issues where you agree with these people.

Not everyone who says something transphobic is a die-hard transphobe. The people who spend their time trying to undermine trans* rights are very good at making their talking points seem reasonable. People for whom these issues aren’t personally relevant may not have the knowledge to recognize that these arguments are bullshit and are being pushed in bad faith. And that’s okay. Everyone can’t know everything.

B U T

It is at the very least a red flag when someone is called on making a transphobic statement and doubles down on it. It is at the very least a red flag when someone is called on making a transphobic statement and isn’t willing to apologize and/or learn. We had users in this thread who asked questions about how specific statements are transphobic. That’s cool! We had users in this thread who admitted to not being well read on the subject and politely asked for further reading to confirm another user’s claim. That’s cool!

If you’re not willing to learn, you’re not entitled to a free pass just because you say “I’m not a transphobe, honest!” Nor are you entitled to a free pass if your friends repeat that line. People are apprehensive because your words don’t jive with your actions.
Don't launch personal attacks! Don't blow things out of proportion! Don't misrepresent past events! Stop ruthlessly bringing up old stuff that the mods have already looked over!

Suppose we have a person who's generally supportive of trans people and believed that they deserve equal rights.
Now suppose said person gets met with relentless and ruthless malice in response to saying something incredibly mild. Do you think they are going to become more or less supportive on trans issues?

I think you people should be more careful about throwing transphobia accusations around. People don't respond to it well, especially if they have no such intent or mentality. Also, do mind the fable of "The Boy Who Cried Wolf".

Frankly, I don't get the paranoia here in the first place. These forums are actually very friendly towards trans people. The mods deal with actual instances of transphobia very aggressively, and the demographics are probably around 90%+ pro-trans. Just given the numbers, why do you even fear transphobes that much? Real, serious ones would just get utterly piled.

Honestly, it's these inquisitions that make these forums look more trans-unfriendly than they actually are (especially when they derail trans-related threads). I've seen utter nothing being blown into massive mountains, and I've seen people use misrepresentative (transphobia) accusations as a tool to pursue petty personal quarrels. The mods are handling things just fine! If the inquisitors are acting honestly, then they are exhibiting very poor judgement, and should frankly just stop their vigilantism. Things need to be proportional, and based on looking at the whole picture.

Also, assuming that everyone is a transphobe and out to get you is simply not a healthy mentality to have.
 

Attaman

"I say we forget this business and run."
I’m all for offering people an out; “you might not have known this, but...” and so on.
I'll point out that the issue with offering an out is that it requires (both in assumption and effect) that the offending party is acting in good faith. And the issue with that is, well... despite how some people might be trying to spin things, this thread did not appear out of the blue to stir dreck. Nor was it an attempt to point fingers or start a witch hunt.

It was made in Site Discussion to make a request to an announcement banner. Because users were repeatedly making spontaneous posts arguing that the validity of one's pronouns is up for debate. Because multiple users were ganging up on trans- forum members, in pro-Trans threads, doing everything from telling them "No, you're wrong: This isn't transphobic. You're just overreacting / bullying / trying to thought police" to outright telling them "You're mentally damaged."

In immediate response to posting this thread in response to as much, we saw users doing everything from defending aforementioned transphobic content - removed, infracted transphobic content - as "Not transphobic, just stupid to say out loud". Insinuating that LGBTQ+ protections are proof of privilege, not harassment, and that what the pro-LGBTQ+ crowd really should be doing is pushing to have explicit protections removed. Demanding scholarly and government sources proving that transphobia is a real problem and that trans rights (humanitarian, civil, et al) are lacking, followed by intense nitpicking and sea lioning of any evidence provided for the two. We had people posting in Forum Games that threads like these were Virtue Signaling and teeth-gnashing about losing a corrupt Mod enforcing Right Think and all that jazz. Saying that all FAF’s transphobic content is “mild”, and as such should be ignored at best and tolerated / acceptable at worst. When this thread was temporarily locked, the typical refrain in follow-ups was "Just stop posting LGBTQ+ content and rising to the bait :)". Hell, just on the last three pages we had people openly laugh at the idea of the community and moderation enforcing basic site CoC in regards to Transphobic Content, as well as making backhanded compliments intended to go after not only the Trans community but BLM at the same time. We’ve also seen a return of “Things we’re fine :) Until the thought police game :)” / “Are Attack Helicopter jokes really that bad? :) Also I can’t be transphobic :) I like trans people :) If a trans users says I’m posting transphobic content, they’re the real problem :)”.

Or, going right back where I started: The issue with offering an out is that it requires the offending party to be acting in good faith.
 

contemplationistwolf

The Restless Maverick
Because multiple users were ganging up on trans- forum members, in pro-Trans threads, doing everything from telling them "No, you're wrong: This isn't transphobic. You're just overreacting / bullying / trying to thought police"
This is the 'blowing out of proportion' and 'taking things out of context' I was talking about. The trans individual herself was acting incredibly aggressive, and I genuinely don't think what she was calling out was transphobic in any way. Don't think it's a problem when people call out said aggression. Oh and the 'ganging up' was like 2 people at worst in the first thread, and in the second thread it was more of a several vs several situation.

In immediate response to posting this thread in response to as much, we saw users doing everything from defending aforementioned transphobic content - removed, infracted transphobic content - as "Not transphobic, just stupid to say out loud".

That's not what was said. In reality, it simply wasn't acknowledged that the individual in question was a transphobe given just what they said, but it wasn't ruled out either. It was clearly stated that the behavior was stupid, and the statements themselves weren't defended in any way. You are completely misrepresenting past events here, just as I was talking about.

As for the rest of what you said, I don't even remember it that well anymore, but I don't trust you to be painting an accurate picture given your pattern of misrepresenting past events.

Anyhow! The mods have looked over pretty much all of this and taken the actions they deemed appropriate. Oh and they took those actions having seen more of the picture than you guys. Why do you even keep bringing this stuff up again? And then spinning it in such ways at that?

Or, going right back where I started: The issue with offering an out is that it requires the offending party to be acting in good faith.
You and your crowd are not good judges on whether people are acting in good faith. That much has been made very obvious!
 
Last edited:

Attaman

"I say we forget this business and run."
I'd like to make something abundantly clear to people:

Support for Trans Rights (as well as Civil Rights in general and other pushes of equality) are not conditional. Under any circumstance. You're either in favor of basic human rights / treatment, equal rights, legal protections, et al, or you aren't. There is no middle ground. There is no "I was going to support your right to humane treatment, but you were mean to me and so now I'm not." It is not "Well, I normally support the right pronouns, but this person is an asshole so I'll specifically misgender them". It is not 'allyship' to take a look at a protest, go "This is less civil than I would like: Where's the peaceful protest of [past prominent figure]?", and respond "If this does not clean up you're on your own."

If somebody - somebody who is trans - pulls you aside - aside in a trans positivity thread - to say "Please don't make that 'joke', it's transphobic" has any chance at all of making you go "How rude! How malicious! I will not take these insults! Maybe you should go without my company until you learn some manners", you aren't an ally of the community. At absolute best, you're a self-admitted mercenary who is explicitly only around so long as you get sufficient platitudes and / or benefits for your current level of support, who can and / or will jump ship if the other side presents a better gig (more platitudes, more benefits of friendship, less social pushback, etcetera). At worst - for example, if you then argue that nothing was transphobic about the content at all, and that people should consider themselves lucky to have you as an ally at all - you're showing that your "ally" status was paper thin to begin with, and that you considered your (and others') right to make trans people uncomfortable more important than a basic level of tolerance / comfort for trans members of the community. That if questioned "Are trans people a punchline?", your answer is "Yes, unless they've curried enough of my favor otherwise".
 
There is no "I was going to support your right to humane treatment, but you were mean to me and so now I'm not."
Tbh, i've seen this a lot during my time. It's less to do with trans discrimination than it is with responding in a petty and childish way to percieved insult imo. You make a lot of good points, but i think the issue you're touching on is bigger than the trans rights issue and speaks to the fractured nature of current political discourse and the immaturity of those that can engage in it.
 

Saokymo

Art Cookie
If your reaction to people trying to hold a discussion about transphobia (or any kind of discrimination/bigotry) is to feel personally attacked by it, then that really says more about your personal views than anything. Rather like someone calling out white supremacy, only for certain political groups to spin that into a personal attack against them when they were never even mentioned in the first place.
 

Lucyfur

Free Ovidia
@contemplationistwolf
Really couldn’t leave it alone huh?
Gotta come back around to defend the transphobia of the company you keep huh?
The same transphobia you don’t rebuke.
Honestly walk away because tbh you’re seeming pretty sus.
 

quoting_mungo

Well-Known Member
I'll point out that the issue with offering an out is that it requires (both in assumption and effect) that the offending party is acting in good faith. And the issue with that is, well... despite how some people might be trying to spin things, this thread did not appear out of the blue to stir dreck. Nor was it an attempt to point fingers or start a witch hunt.
Absolutely. Taking up an offer of an out is an implicit agreement not to repeat the behavior. If the behavior is then repeated, it’s a lot easier to say “you were told this was transphobic, and you did it again, so evidently you’re not as not-transphobic as you claim.” I personally see “you may not have known, but...” as a deescalation tactic based on the idea that people are more willing to change their behavior if they don’t lose face in doing so. I also don’t expect everyone else to feel the same way on how to respond to these things.

I want to be very clear that supporting giving people a way to save face does not in any way mean that transphobic content needs to or should be tolerated. If anything, the opposite - point it out every time it happens so that people who are acting in good faith have the chance to better themselves. I want to give people a chance to say “my actions were bad but I will try to do better” - if they respond by defending their actions, instead, they’ve shown their colors and deserve to be treated with caution at best. (There are exceptions, but those are not really relevant here.)

I don’t disagree at all that there were grounds to make this thread and request that staff directly address the issue. I don’t know that I would personally have done it (just in a “different people approach things differently” sense), but you certainly weren’t pulling the circumstances out of thin air.

Don't launch personal attacks! Don't blow things out of proportion! Don't misrepresent past events! Stop ruthlessly bringing up old stuff that the mods have already looked over!
I have done none of these things and would appreciate if you’d refrain from accusing me of it. I literally said that I don’t believe that isolated transphobic statements must mean someone is a transphobe. I am speaking as much about human behavior in general as I am of behavior specifically on FAF and/or in this thread except where explicitly stated otherwise.

Like... you’re the one who’s hung up on past events, here. All I’m asking of anyone in the post you quote is that they don’t double down on their malicious/derogatory speech.
 

Saokymo

Art Cookie
This entire thread, summed up:
“Hey everyone, let’s be nice and not act like bullies on the forum.”
”ZOMG you’re such an SJW, why do you have to be so MEAN?!”
”What? All we said was be nice and not act like a bully. You weren’t even mentioned until you inserted yourself in the conversation.”
”I am personally attacked by that statement.”
 

mangomango

Well-Known Chee
People might not have bad intentions but it's not necessarily up to the person in question to decide what the impact of their words or actions are. Things might be said that don't sit well with a particular person, and despite it being easier to say, "That wasn't harmful, transphobic, etc.", people should try and put effort into realizing what exactly is the issue with what someone says and how to fix it in the future. Impact of words doesn't always equal intended impact, and instead of blaming the people who get offended, if you say something that another person is bothered by apologize, don't take it personally, and move on, keeping in mind what to do / not do in the future.
 

FlooferWoofer

Depressed. Going back into lurk mode.
Trans rights ARE human rights. This should not be a controversial statement and it scares me that it is. Does my existence really cause some of you such chagrin and discomfort that this thread became a slapping contest? How did this even happen? I'm genuinely disappointed because I clicked on this hoping to alleviate some level of angst and now it's just compounded.

We do NOT have equal rights and that is fact.

Being trans literally hurts no one at any stage of your lives. xp Yet there are people who want to spot-inspect my genitals before I can enter a bathroom based on what- traits arbitrarily associated with gender binaries? I would get even funnier looks if I tried to use the men's room... because I don't look masc and that would instantly out me too.

I'll take this a step further. Did you know I was going to join the military and can't now because they can see my prescriptions for spirono and estra and tell I'm trans? I literally can't be allowed to serve our country on my own whims, but I bet they would have no qualms drafting me if they were desperate. So I get the right to be conscripted against my will, but not the right to serve as a woman?

Trans rights ARE human rights and we need help because far too many would willingly deprive us of basic needs.
 

contemplationistwolf

The Restless Maverick
I have done none of these things and would appreciate if you’d refrain from accusing me of it. I literally said that I don’t believe that isolated transphobic statements must mean someone is a transphobe. I am speaking as much about human behavior in general as I am of behavior specifically on FAF and/or in this thread except where explicitly stated otherwise.
I wasn't actually addressing you directly, just pointing out general problems. Sorry if it came across that way.

@contemplationistwolf
Really couldn’t leave it alone huh?
Gotta come back around to defend the transphobia of the company you keep huh?
The same transphobia you don’t rebuke.
Honestly walk away because tbh you’re seeming pretty sus.
Got your baseless assertions *rolls eyes*

I get involved in whatever I consider important within the context. I don't think this community is under any threat from transphobes. It is however under threat from moral inquisitions built on lies.

This entire thread, summed up:
“Hey everyone, let’s be nice and not act like bullies on the forum.”
”ZOMG you’re such an SJW, why do you have to be so MEAN?!”
”What? All we said was be nice and not act like a bully. You weren’t even mentioned until you inserted yourself in the conversation.”
”I am personally attacked by that statement.”
That's not what's going on at all. Instead, what's being done is a bunch of false narratives are being pushed. Nothing wrong with discussing societal transphobia. Everything wrong with making making false transphobia accusations towards people/events on this site that aren't such, and then trying to aggressively push those narratives.

Does my existence really cause some of you such chagrin and discomfort that this thread became a slapping contest?
It didn't become a slapping contest because your existence causes anyone here discomfort (it doesn't). It became that because of the false narratives being pushed about things that have been going on in this site.

There is no "I was going to support your right to humane treatment, but you were mean to me and so now I'm not." It is not "Well, I normally support the right pronouns, but this person is an asshole so I'll specifically misgender them".
Agreed! If a trans individual is behaving bad, you should call out their behavior or the actual bad aspects about them, not use who they are against them. It's a shame some people aren't above it.
 

Stray Cat Terry

고먐미
Nah... I myself am a genderfluid too, but I go simple: I do me, haters gonna exist no matter how I be. So again, I do me. Cuz I want to, despite the hates and stuffs.

We don't really have to try to 'inform others', especially the 'opposing beings'. It'll be a waste of time, I suppose... And there's a high probability to make yourself more enemies. So I don't really let those negative things waste my time or advance on me. You can do it too, let's chill. UwU
 
Last edited:

Miles Marsalis

The Last DJ.
I was refraining from commenting here, but I feel it's time and I'm uncomfortable with the way trans people have been treated on here, especially by those who identify as conservative.

Correct if I'm wrong, because this did happen a few months ago, but there were something like five threads set up to express nothing more than transgender pride and possibly LGBT solidarity in a very short span. Those threads weren't demeaning cis people or straight people, just celebrating trans rights and ways to show LGBT pride. The purpose of these threads was also clearly stated in the opening posts, so unless you were illiterate, you knew what the threads were about and should have been aware of how to behave.

Despite all of the above being fairly evident, every single one of those threads had a certain subset of users who were post comments that by general majority consensus were clearly transphobic and meant to maliciously derail the threads.

If this happened once, it'd be unfortunate, but you could maybe chalk it up a misunderstanding, provided you ignored the clear derogatory statements (which I'm going to point out that mods had to remove, so clearly they met some standard of offensiveness and harassment) AND multiple users trying to reason with those making transphobic comments.

If this happened twice, maybe you could call it a coincidence and just say the users making transphobic comment are just slow learners who just had a relapse.

But when we get to five threads about transgender pride being disrupted and disrespected by same set of users making derogatory comments about trans people and the associated gaslighting afterwards, I think is should be clear to everyone who wants to be honest that is a deliberate transphobic trend, not a string of coincidences and misunderstandings.

I think it is reasonable for trans users and others to say enough is enough and demand better at that point.

The fact the mods had delete transphobic material from these threads (including this one) proves that this material violated community guidelines in the first place, otherwise why remove it? The material was offensive and people have a right to be offended by insulted issued to them. Some users, probably with a vested interested in saying so, might what harm do words have and the trans people or anyone is offended should just block the offending parties and be done with it.

Putting aside the corrosive effects of transphobic comments being made freely in the forum community, I think there is the obvious possible outcome some trans user being bullied just enough to harm themselves or even kill themselves. It also has the effect of driving away trans and nonbinary users while serving as a carrion call to users who think it's funny to bully them.

I noticed that there is trend where people like to say there are "sides" involved in this and the problem stems from both of them bickering, then tack on a throwaway statement supportive of trans people.

I don't really see where people arguing against transphobia are just as bad or bear some of the blame for those making transphobic comments. If we were at a trans pride party in real life (I don't know whether this is a thing, just roll with it) and a group of guests started making attack helicopter jokes, calling trans people mentally ill, and jeering at them for being offended, sensible people are not going to say, "This is both sides' fault. They need to stop arguing."

The people being rude and transphobic would be told to stop and if they didn't, they would get bounced.

I think the same principle should apply here and I don't think trans users should have to turn the other cheek when they done nothing wrong.
 
Last edited:

mangomango

Well-Known Chee
I was refraining from commenting here, but I feel it's time and I'm uncomfortable with the way trans people have been treated on here, especially by those who identify as conservative.

Correct if I'm wrong, because this did happen a few months ago, but there were something like five threads set up to express nothing more than transgender pride and possibly LGBT solidarity in a very short span. Those threads weren't demeaning cis people or straight people, just celebrating trans rights and ways to show LGBT pride. The purpose of these threads was also clearly stated in the opening posts, so unless you were illiterate, you knew what the threads were about and should have been aware of how to behave.

Despite all of the above being fairly evident, every single one of those threads had a certain subset of users who were post comments that by general majority consensus were clearly transphobic and meant to maliciously derail the threads.

If this happened once, it'd be unfortunate, but you could maybe chalk it up a misunderstanding, provided you ignored the clear derogatory statements (which I'm going to point out that mods had to remove, so clearly they met some standard of offensiveness and harassment) AND multiple users trying to reason with those making transphobic comments.

If this happened twice, maybe you could call it a coincidence and just say the users making transphobic comment are just slow learners who just had a relapse.

But when we get to five threads about transgender pride being disrupted and disrespected by same set of users making derogatory comments about trans people and the associated gaslighting afterwards, I think is should be clear to everyone who wants to be honest that is a deliberate transphobic trend, not a string of coincidences and misunderstandings.

I think it is reasonable for trans users and others to say enough is enough and demand better at that point.

The fact the mods had delete transphobic material from these threads (including this one) proves that this material violated community guidelines in the first place, otherwise why remove it? The material was offensive and people have a right to be offended by insulted issued to them. Some users, probably with a vested interested in saying so, might what harm do words have and the trans people or anyone is offended should just block the offending parties and be done with it.

Putting aside the corrosive effects of transphobic comments being made freely in the forum community, I think there is the obvious possible outcome some trans user being bullied just enough to harm themselves or even kill themselves. It also has the effect of driving away trans and nonbinary users while serving as a carrion call to users who think it's funny to bully them.

I noticed that there is trend where people like to say there are "sides" involved in this and the problem stems from both of them bickering, then tack on a throwaway statement supportive of trans people.

I don't really see where people arguing against transphobia are just as bad or bear some of the blame for those making transphobic comments. If we were at a trans pride party in real life (I don't know whether this is a thing, just roll with it) and a group of guests started making attack helicopter jokes, calling trans people mentally ill, and jeering at them for being offended, sensible people are not going to say, "This is both sides fault. They need to stop arguing."

The people being rude and transphobic would be told to stop and if they didn't, they would get bounced.

I think the same principle should apply here and I don't think trans users should have to turn the other cheek when they done nothing wrong.
I agree. Being trans is not a choice. Being transphobic and rude to others on the internet is. :3
 

Lucyfur

Free Ovidia
I will go on the record to say I did not lie about others having been transphobic here and that if anyone believes claims of me lieing they can DM me and I’ll prove I am not a liar.
 

Punji

Vaskebjørn
This isn't towards anyone directly, just a general post on some of the common thoughts I've seen expressed.

The People
I think the reason why these threads inevitably end the way they do is because of the views expressed by all parties. I honestly doubt there are many, indeed if any, genuine transphobes active here on the FAF. If there are, they must be rightfully silent. I personally find myself in these threads from time to time because of the disagreeable conduct of some of the participants, despite being extremely indifferent towards transgender people and its aspects or what have one.

I think some people get a little carried away and here is where the issues start to appear. No one as far as I know has any issue with trans people, I certainly don't. Some of the claims and arguments and even sentiments however become quite sour, as they have here and before. I don't think I have anything new to say regarding these things nor have I seen anything new said about them, so I'll save my piece for another day. However, I feel it is important to point out few to none are truly innocent and both parties must be acting in good faith. It is easy to say "oh person X or group Y isn't trying to be amicable" while regarding them with hostility or negative views and feel like the better one. Slowing things down and thinking about the tone and phrasing alone can help with the arguments I think, but often one forgets to empathize with their opponents. Both parties must act in good faith, often one expects the other to yet will not themselves.

The Morality
Another issue I very commonly see here is trying to establish a moral standard by which a given person is expected to uphold or be vilified and demonized. (Labelled a "transphobe" most often). Often one says something to the effect of "if a trans person says something is offensive to them then it's offensive." The fact of the matter is that what is and isn't offensive is subjective at best. Offence is never given, only taken. Without getting into the messy (;)) details, I call myself a "furfag" fairly often. To some this would undoubtedly be a grave insult, but I think it's kinda funny instead. I'd be quite against labelling someone as a "hateful bigot" because they joking called me or someone else a furfag when the entire insult is practically satire at this point. Some people however would respond extremely poorly.

In turn, this sort of behaviour becomes quite an issue. It's not "let's agree to disagree" or "some people simply feel differently about different subjects, and that's okay." Instead it becomes closer to "Agree with me or you're a bigot." The lack of interest in communication and opposing view points is a poison to any discussion. Any such minor nuance as "transgenderism" being in any way wrongful for example. The "ism" isn't a negative addition, or so I personally don't find it as such. Example, I usually use the phrase "furryism" to describe one's furry-ness/involvement in the fandom objectively. "Me and my furryism." It's quite confrontational to attempt to dictate exactly how language is used in such discussions. In my opinion, this is where the majority of problems arise, not because of supposed transphobia. Personal conflicts, not bigotry.

Personal conflicts
Amazing transition aside, here lies the meat of why these threads end up in flames nearly every time. Let's not sugar-coat it, there are some people here who are not interested in being friendly and polite. Some of us here on the FAF, and indeed in other gatherings, don't seem to have hearts in the right places. The majority of conflicts caused here are clashes between people who already don't like each other, I think. Many of the posts in these threads are positively seething. Perhaps it's a combination of things.

It is no secret I'm sure, that everyone has a side and wants something different from this. Quite frankly, if anyone is looking for an echo chamber there are Discord servers for this, if not other sites as well. I'll say it again, there are no innocents in this world. Not everyone who thinks they act in good faith truly is, and not everyone even tries. Transphobia here on the FAF is a marginal to non-existent issue with the worst "bullying" being gang-ups for differing opinions and entirely light attempts at insult given this is in fact the Internet we're speaking over. Some who cry wolf are the villain in another fur's story. No one is innocent.

Lastly, two wrongs don't make a right. Let the past be over and give up your grudges, and maybe we'll finally see a happy resolution to things here. Too many of us are harbouring grudges and screenshots while conspiring in the virtual equivalent of a dark backroom over some opinion on the Internet. It's obvious everyone thinks they're the good and right one as one naturally would, but some can do more to better the situation than others, capiche?
 
Last edited:

Bluefiremark II

Magic Blue Phoenix
Don't launch personal attacks! Don't blow things out of proportion! Don't misrepresent past events! Stop ruthlessly bringing up old stuff that the mods have already looked over!

Suppose we have a person who's generally supportive of trans people and believed that they deserve equal rights.
Now suppose said person gets met with relentless and ruthless malice in response to saying something incredibly mild. Do you think they are going to become more or less supportive on trans issues?

I think you people should be more careful about throwing transphobia accusations around. People don't respond to it well, especially if they have no such intent or mentality. Also, do mind the fable of "The Boy Who Cried Wolf".

Frankly, I don't get the paranoia here in the first place. These forums are actually very friendly towards trans people. The mods deal with actual instances of transphobia very aggressively, and the demographics are probably around 90%+ pro-trans. Just given the numbers, why do you even fear transphobes that much? Real, serious ones would just get utterly piled.

Honestly, it's these inquisitions that make these forums look more trans-unfriendly than they actually are (especially when they derail trans-related threads). I've seen utter nothing being blown into massive mountains, and I've seen people use misrepresentative (transphobia) accusations as a tool to pursue petty personal quarrels. The mods are handling things just fine! If the inquisitors are acting honestly, then they are exhibiting very poor judgement, and should frankly just stop their vigilantism. Things need to be proportional, and based on looking at the whole picture.

Also, assuming that everyone is a transphobe and out to get you is simply not a healthy mentality to have.
This is EXACTLY me btw. Like, I've been to two lgbt threads, and the *mildest* offense i get harrassed and a warning from a mod and its crazy, now I'm completely against it. I used to be fine with it, i didn't like it but you do you, but now it's just full of hate. Accidentally say one thing they mildly dislike and im harrassed. I'm not going to harrass back, but I'm never supporting them since i only ever get harrassed for trying to be understanding to them.

I don't think this thread needed to be maafe. It was bound to cause issues yet again.

I don't hate anyone for being trans, but stop being so stereotypical mean to everyone, if you want respect its a 2 way thing. You can't ask for trans rights but harrass everyone. =/ be nice, that's the golden rule. Treat others the way you want to be treated!
 

mangomango

Well-Known Chee
This is EXACTLY me btw. Like, I've been to two lgbt threads, and the *mildest* offense i get harrassed and a warning from a mod and its crazy, now I'm completely against it. I used to be fine with it, i didn't like it but you do you, but now it's just full of hate. Accidentally say one thing they mildly dislike and im harrassed. I'm not going to harrass back, but I'm never supporting them since i only ever get harrassed for trying to be understanding to them.

I don't think this thread needed to be maafe. It was bound to cause issues yet again.

I don't hate anyone for being trans, but stop being so stereotypical mean to everyone, if you want respect its a 2 way thing. You can't ask for trans rights but harrass everyone. =/ be nice, that's the golden rule. Treat others the way you want to be treated!
I apologize that that's what you've taken away from the threads. I do believe that there's a fair amount of miscommunication issues that get interpreted wrong. I don't believe that many people on these threads (either side) have malice behind their actions and I think that it would be helpful to get off on a new foot. I think that the negative reactions towards certain words or phrases comes from trauma / negative interactions that have taken place over time. It may be the first time some people have used these phrases and they may not have meant anything by it, but I think often trans people have been exposed to negativity and hate from many different people and over long periods of time that a phrase that means little to you can be taken as a signal of hostility by other people. I'm not justifying the hostility from both sides, just making an observation. Most of these issues do come from miscommunication, which can spiral into arguments once tension rises.

I think the best solution to this is to give people benefit of the doubt despite earlier interactions, and make sure to attack the person's wording or actions, not necessarily the person.
 

Balskarr

The Lurking Hooman
This isn't towards anyone directly, just a general post on some of the common thoughts I've seen expressed.

The People
I think the reason why these threads inevitably end the way they do is because of the views expressed by all parties. I honestly doubt there are many, indeed if any, genuine transphobes active here on the FAF. If there are, they must be rightfully silent. I personally find myself in these threads from time to time because of the disagreeable conduct of some of the participants, despite being extremely indifferent towards transgender people and its aspects or what have one.

I think some people get a little carried away and here is where the issues start to appear. No one as far as I know has any issue with trans people, I certainly don't. Some of the claims and arguments and even sentiments however become quite sour, as they have here and before. I don't think I have anything new to say regarding these things nor have I seen anything new said about them, so I'll save my piece for another day. However, I feel it is important to point out few to none are truly innocent and both parties must be acting in good faith. It is easy to say "oh person X or group Y isn't trying to be amicable" while regarding them with hostility or negative views and feel like the better one. Slowing things down and thinking about the tone and phrasing alone can help with the arguments I think, but often one forgets to empathize with their opponents. Both parties must act in good faith, often one expects the other to yet will not themselves.

The Morality
Another issue I very commonly see here is trying to establish a moral standard by which a given person is expected to uphold or be vilified and demonized. (Labelled a "transphobe" most often). Often one says something to the effect of "if a trans person says something is offensive to them then it's offensive." The fact of the matter is that what is and isn't offensive is subjective at best. Offence is never given, only taken. Without getting into the messy (;)) details, I call myself a "furfag" fairly often. To some this would undoubtedly be a grave insult, but I think it's kinda funny instead. I'd be quite against labelling someone as a "hateful bigot" because they joking called me or someone else a furfag when the entire insult is practically satire at this point. Some people however would respond extremely poorly.

In turn, this sort of behaviour becomes quite an issue. It's not "let's agree to disagree" or "some people simply feel differently about different subjects, and that's okay." Instead it becomes closer to "Agree with me or you're a bigot." The lack of interest in communication and opposing view points is a poison to any discussion. Any such minor nuance as "transgenderism" being in any way wrongful for example. The "ism" isn't a negative addition, or so I personally don't find it as such. Example, I usually use the phrase "furryism" to describe one's furry-ness/involvement in the fandom objectively. "Me and my furryism." It's quite confrontational to attempt to dictate exactly how language is used in such discussions. In my opinion, this is where the majority of problems arise, not because of supposed transphobia. Personal conflicts, not bigotry.

Personal conflicts
Amazing transition aside, here lies the meat of why these threads end up in flames nearly every time. Let's not sugar-coat it, there are some people here who are not interested in being friendly and polite. Some of us here on the FAF, and indeed in other gatherings, don't seem to have hearts in the right places. The majority of conflicts caused here are clashes between people who already don't like each other, I think. Many of the posts in these threads are positively seething. Perhaps it's a combination of things.

It is no secret I'm sure, that everyone has a side and wants something different from this. Quite frankly, if anyone is looking for an echo chamber there are Discord servers for this, if not other sites as well. I'll say it again, there are no innocents in this world. Not everyone who thinks they act in good faith truly is, and not everyone even tries. Transphobia here on the FAF is a marginal to non-existent issue with the worst "bullying" being gang-ups for differing opinions and entirely light attempts at insult given this is in fact the Internet we're speaking over. Some who cry wolf are the villain in another fur's story. No one is innocent.

Lastly, two wrongs don't make a right. Let the past be over and give up your grudges, and maybe we'll finally see a happy resolution to things here. Too many of us are harbouring grudges and screenshots while conspiring in the virtual equivalent of a dark backroom over some opinion on the Internet. It's obvious everyone thinks they're the good and right one as one naturally would, but some can do more to better the situation than others, capiche?
Oh look. Someone with their head in the right place. Bravo.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Top