Ukraine

[Miles Marsalis]

I'm inclined to doubt this, personally. It's just not realistic or sustainable. But even so, if the government seized 100% of the payment, $120 USD might not even cover the costs to build a single empty magazine, much less a functioning military firearm or any kind of explosive. War cannot be funded purely from taxing furry artists.

Compassion isn't strictly a limited resource. Rather than just presume the existence (and usefulness) of such charity organizations, providing direct income to artists will only help them. It won't take away from other external supports, nor will it be able to actually finance very much of the massive war machine. It's not right to turn one's back to the innocent civilian population of an "enemy" country

You're being deliberately dense.

No single payment or all the payments from costumers paying for furry art will cover the cost of the Russian war effort ... but those payments are part of the international payments the Russian government and banks are using to continue the war. Putting aside the moral issue of ignoring the fact that your money in part will fund the continuing human rights abuses against Ukrainians, the sanctions against Russia, including those regarding payment processors, are meant not just deprive the Russian government of funds, but pressure the Russian citizenry to proactively oppose their government's continuance of the war.

To @Firuthi Dragovic 's point, it doesn't necessarily need to be the tax rate that is raised, even; Russian banks coordinate closely with the government there and could simply raise transaction fees to extract more money from international payments.

Actually, at the beginning of the war, several friends pointed out to me that Russia's central bank had raised the interest rate around 9% to 20% there, so the government is disposed to raising whatever rates it needs to.

 

[Vanessa Howl]

You're being deliberately dense.

No single payment or all the payments from costumers paying for furry art will cover the cost of the Russian war effort ... but those payments are part of the international payments the Russian government and banks are using to continue the war. Putting aside the moral issue of ignoring the fact that your money in part will fund the continuing human rights abuses against Ukrainians, the sanctions against Russia, including those regarding payment processors, are meant not just deprive the Russian government of funds, but pressure the Russian citizenry to proactively oppose their government's continuance of the war.

To @Firuthi Dragovic 's point, it doesn't necessarily need to be the tax rate that is raised, even; Russian banks coordinate closely with the government there and could simply raise transaction fees to extract more money from international payments.

Actually, at the beginning of the war, several friends pointed out to me that Russia's central bank had raised the interest rate around 9% to 20% there, so government is disposed to raising whatever rates it needs to.

I'm just gonna step in here for a sec and drop my two cents into the bucket.

I think we can all agree that what Russia is doing is horrible and that Putin is easily the bad guy in this. But as I said before, the Russian PEOPLE are being punished for something they never even had a say in (no matter how much the Russian government may try to convince them otherwise). No one want's to be the one that buys the bullet that kills a child but while the Russian government DOES get a chunk of the money, it's honestly still peanuts compared to the big picture and I'm not sure what ya'll in the states are doing about the war, but us Canadians already have people over there to help the Ukrainians directly and that, I feel is a much bigger impact on the war as a whole than simply doing something like giving a Russian artist a few bucks for a commission: sure, Putin is still getting some of that money but he's also still getting bullet holes in his war machines and having his efforts pushed back every time a Ukrainian is given aid of any kind.

To put it in business terms (and let's be honest...war IS a business): you need to think dollars not dimes and worrying about what spending a few bucks on a piece of art because SOME of it will go towards the war is worrying about the dimes.

 

[Fallowfox]

Honestly surprised by the people defending the purchase of luxury goods from Russia.

Honestly surprised people have the money to buy luxury goods anyway with the cost of living crisis, but maybe I don't live like the other half do.

 

[Miles Marsalis]

I'm just gonna step in here for a sec and drop my two cents into the bucket.

I think we can all agree that what Russia is doing is horrible and that Putin is easily the bad guy in this. But as I said before, the Russian PEOPLE are being punished for something they never even had a say in (no matter how much the Russian government may try to convince them otherwise). No one want's to be the one that buys the bullet that kills a child but while the Russian government DOES get a chunk of the money, it's honestly still peanuts compared to the big picture and I'm not sure what ya'll in the states are doing about the war, but us Canadians already have people over there to help the Ukrainians directly and that, I feel is a much bigger impact on the war as a whole than simply doing something like giving a Russian artist a few bucks for a commission: sure, Putin is still getting some of that money but he's also still getting bullet holes in his war machines and having his efforts pushed back every time a Ukrainian is given aid of any kind.

To put it in business terms (and let's be honest...war IS a business): you need to think dollars not dimes and worrying about what spending a few bucks on a piece of art because SOME of it will go towards the war is worrying about the dimes.

We agree on the Russian government and I've already talk about the need for the Russian people to pressure their own government to end the war.

But I can't emphasize enough the sanctions need to be comprehensive in order to work and they've already had an effect on the Russian economy. The sanctions were designed to plug any hole the Russian government could pull funding out of, whether those are large B2B payments or small transactions between payment processor users, in this case users in the furry fandom.

No doubt that the Ukrainians are getting on the ground is helping them, but so are the economic sanctions against the Russian government.

I'd also add that Russia continuing the war isn't good for Russians either; look at the crackdowns on protestors and the general citizenry, the deteriorating living conditions, and the forced conscription happening there. Those payments are buying time for the Russian government to continue those abuses, however small.

Also, since we're listing reliable charities to contribute here to for Ukraine, there is United24:

United24 - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

UNITED24 - The initiative of the President of Ukraine

UNITED24 was launched by the President of Ukraine Volodymyr Zelenskyy as the main venue for collecting charitable donations in support of Ukraine. Funds will be transferred to the official accounts of the National Bank of Ukraine and allocated by assigned ministries to cover the most pressing needs

u24.gov.ua

 

[TyraWadman]

I know y'all ain't trying to get my thread locked after having it go completely ignored for so long. )8<

 

[Vanessa Howl]

I know y'all ain't trying to get my thread locked after having it go completely ignored for so long. )8<

ALL GOING ACCORDING TO PLAN.>:3

 

[TyraWadman]

Y'all about to take your MADicine

 

[Miles Marsalis]

I know y'all ain't trying to get my thread locked after having it go completely ignored for so long. )8<

Pardon.

Also, hey.

 

[TyraWadman]

Pardon.

Also, hey.

Howdy

Also I don't think anyone has gone over the top as of yet but please don't let it teeter. Discussion and civil disagreement is fine. Just.. don't need a 2.0 from the other locked thread regarding this

 

[Pomorek]

Howdy

Also I don't think anyone has gone over the top as of yet but please don't let it teeter. Discussion and civil disagreement is fine. Just.. don't need a 2.0 from the other locked thread regarding this

I'd also like to point out that while we're about to get pitchforks working here about whether it's acceptable to buy Russian furry art or not - Europe keeps being dependent on Russian hydrocarbons for it's existence and in this way is unwillingly funding Pootin's war machine big time.

There are efforts ongoing to stop this dependence, absolutely. But they're not nearly completed and until that happens, I'd risk a claim that we just cannot sanction Russia in a way that hurts *for real*.

Now, on the topic of consumer-level sanctions. They're fully understandable on moral grounds. If this country behaves like that, then we just cannot let them enjoy our goodies.

But the hopes that this will cause any significant protests appear pretty void at this point. Just look what happened there lately: brutally enforced and indiscriminate conscription. And this caused at most some regional-level outrage, which was then being blown out of proportion by all too eager Western journalists, before it subsided. If this conscription didn't cause any revolt, then absence of iPhones, Ikea, MacDonald's and international bank transfers for art won't cause any revolt either.

 

[Punji]

You're being deliberately dense.

No single payment or all the payments from costumers paying for furry art will cover the cost of the Russian war effort ... but those payments are part of the international payments the Russian government and banks are using to continue the war. Putting aside the moral issue of ignoring the fact that your money in part will fund the continuing human rights abuses against Ukrainians, the sanctions against Russia, including those regarding payment processors, are meant not just deprive the Russian government of funds, but pressure the Russian citizenry to proactively oppose their government's continuance of the war.

To Firuthi Dragovic's point, it doesn't necessarily need to be the tax rate that is raised, even; Russian banks coordinate closely with the government there and could simply raise transaction fees to extract more money from international payments.

Actually, at the beginning of the war, several friends pointed out to me that Russia's central bank had raised the interest rate around 9% to 20% there, so the government is disposed to raising whatever rates it needs to.

You're being deliberately contrarian. If I say it's up, you gotta come on over and say it's down.

Do people realize a country in war doesn't spend virtually all of it's taxation income on said war efforts? The vast majority of Russia's income is being spent on generic maintenance. Paying a private citizen in Russia is not buying the bullet that kills a single mother of three.

The world isn't such a dramatic stage play you're trying to pretend it is. All this is just empty virtue-signalling without any thought to who is actually being hurt by it. If those artists aren't making money from commissions they'll have to make money through some other means, which will be taxed instead. Russia must still import and export goods in the global economy, it's not like digital art is driving their economy.

It's all vapid and hollow to pretend there's a moral choice to not support an innocent person and a victim of circumstance.

 

[BooTheHamster]

Honestly surprised by the people defending the purchase of luxury goods from Russia.

Honestly surprised people have the money to buy luxury goods anyway with the cost of living crisis, but maybe I don't live like the other half do.

Defending the purchase of luxury goods from another person. Who happens to live in Russia.

Who are you to dictate who can purchase what niceties with whatever money they possess? Are we seriously going to use austerity as a defense for punching the Average Josef in the pocketbook over what a dictator who has shown zero inclination towards any interests beyond accumulating power does? We're talking about a man who was in the KGB, a governmental authority that acted as the enforcement arm for a totalitarian government. Do totalitarians and dictators typically operate on the level of "but what about the people I govern?" Go look at North Korea's past dictators and their stockpiles of caviar and Hennessy cognac while their subjects subsisted on grass clippings and spoke not a peep of open dissent lest they be ERASED FROM EXISTENCE AND MEMORY by iron fist of dictatorial fiat.

The inability to separate an individual, from the people in their environs, from the people who GOVERN all of them, from the nation in which they all reside, is utterly INEXCUSABLE in the Information Age where you can fucking TALK TO THEM DIRECTLY SO MUCH OF THE TIME. You REFUSE to see individuals because it's easier to feel good about punching a nebulous "other/badguy" in the dick than it is to face the idea of demolishing a random individual's livelihood over what amounts to GUILT BY ASSOCIATION, and you engage in this absurd rationalization because you know as well as anyone that there is VERY LITTLE people like you and I can actually do to end the kind of bullshit Putin and people like him engage in from our current standings, and you don't like facing the fact that you're nowhere near as powerful as you would like to believe. So you pick a nebulous target and flail at it like a shadowboxer, screaming "I'M HELPING!"

 

[Fallowfox]

Defending the purchase of luxury goods from another person. Who happens to live in Russia.

Who are you to dictate who can purchase what niceties with whatever money they possess? Are we seriously going to use austerity as a defense for punching the Average Josef in the pocketbook over what a dictator who has shown zero inclination towards any interests beyond accumulating power does? We're talking about a man who was in the KGB, a governmental authority that acted as the enforcement arm for a totalitarian government. Do totalitarians and dictators typically operate on the level of "but what about the people I govern?" Go look at North Korea's past dictators and their stockpiles of caviar and Hennessy cognac while their subjects subsisted on grass clippings and spoke not a peep of open dissent lest they be ERASED FROM EXISTENCE AND MEMORY by iron fist of dictatorial fiat.

So I agree with @Pomorek that individual consumer actions may have small effects, but that they contain moral value and solidarity.

To use the example you brought up, I wouldn't try to commission an artist inside North Korea either.
A recent example of another widespread consumer boycott was people's refusal to buy fruits and vegetables grown in apartheid South Africa.

 

[BooTheHamster]

So I agree with @Pomorek that individual consumer actions may have small effects, but that they contain moral value and solidarity.

To use the example you brought up, I wouldn't try to commission an artist inside North Korea either.
A recent example of another widespread consumer boycott was people's refusal to buy fruits and vegetables grown in apartheid South Africa.

What you're arguing for amounts to demanding people who have been robbed of as much power as possible by dictatorial fiat to "like, just rise up, guys, or we'll put you in the baddie box and starve you to death to get at that bad man and his bad man friends who couldn't possibly care less if you starve to death anyway!" The comparison to apartheid South Africa is so hilariously fallacious it qualifies as a straight up non-sequitur. Comparing apartheid South Africa to KGB-Strongman-ruled Russia is BONKERS.

If anything you're almost certainly destroying the very people who want Putin and his ilk gone the MOST because you just can't bear watching tragedy from afar. Maybe someone should hand you a rifle and paradrop you in to watch it first-hand instead. Who knows, maybe you'd be the one to actually solve it.

Closing doors of exchange and isolating individuals creates an environment favorable to the dictator, not to those who suffer under him.

 

[ssaannttoo]

I think it’s safe to agree that war is bad. Even if you don’t care about the moral/ethical implications of war there is the economic effects of trade reduced and exports/imports that are halted because of it. The break down of infrastructure that costs money and time to get things working back to normal. But something that seems to be of discussion here is artists in russia. Do we pay them or do we not?

If I were to pay a Russian artist 100 dollars for an art piece, even if Russia had a 50% tax rate they would only get 50 dollars, which I doubt will do much good when it comes to producing ammunition or keeping a soldier on the front lines. While 50 dollars for a Russian citizen will help them live. I’ve been fortunate enough to never have to live paycheck to paycheck, but there are people out there who do, and support families. Life isn’t fair sure but being forced to live in a country and unable to do anything to change this situation without getting ‘disapeared’ is pretty shitty.

However Russia is a pretty big place, while 1 artist getting paid 100 dollars isn’t a lot. 1000 artists giving in taxes if 50 dollars each is 50,000 dollars, which is a lot more of something. The question becomes how much do we care? Who do we put more emphasis on? Is there an alternative solution that makes sure Ukraine remains sovereign and Russia remains secure (at least that was the reason I last heard why Russia invaded but who really knows.) the people of Russia they aren’t Russia. They are captives of poor circumstance.

Who do we end up supporting? Do we give Russian citizens what they need to survive? But have the possibility of making the Russian war machine stronger? Do we cut off supplies to Russian in hopes that it makes their war efforts weaker so Ukraine can have an easier fight. No option here is good because when you get down to it, it’s war, there aren’t any winners.

 

[ssaannttoo]

Sorry if my points are a bit jumbled and I’m rambling. It’s late and I saw some less that happy conversation. I wanted to throw my two cents in and hoped that it shined a light on the subject in a different way.

 

[Frank Gulotta]

Holy shitty hot takes, batman
"You can starve, guy/gal who didn't do anything wrong, for I am virtuous and do not want 20 cents to be used to buy guns"
It's not like most people even declare gains from art, especially gay furry artists in Russia

Also if you pay taxes in the US you might've had a few cents you paid land in a group of kids and humanitarian worker in Kabul in the form of a "righteous strike", now what? are you a war criminal? this logic is a pretty deep rabbithole and I don't think anybody really wants to go there.

 

[Miles Marsalis]

You're being deliberately contrarian. If I say it's up, you gotta come on over and say it's down.

Do people realize a country in war doesn't spend virtually all of it's taxation income on said war efforts? The vast majority of Russia's income is being spent on generic maintenance. Paying a private citizen in Russia is not buying the bullet that kills a single mother of three.

The world isn't such a dramatic stage play you're trying to pretend it is. All this is just empty virtue-signalling without any thought to who is actually being hurt by it. If those artists aren't making money from commissions they'll have to make money through some other means, which will be taxed instead. Russia must still import and export goods in the global economy, it's not like digital art is driving their economy.

It's all vapid and hollow to pretend there's a moral choice to not support an innocent person and a victim of circumstance.

This isn't about you and you're not the only who needs perspective on this, quite frankly. I see some people who I actually respect here not seeing the bigger picture.

Like guys, it's not a big sacrifice to not buy luxury goods and services from a country that illegally invaded a democratic country where it is actively committing human right abuses, especially when country has threatened us with a possible unprovoked nuclear strike and we could be at war with them in the near future.

Now, I would say that the atrocities against the Ukrainian people committed by Russia are pretty dramatic, since you know, people are being driven out of their homes, tortured, and killed. There are Ukrainians on FA for whom this is very dramatic and those who aren't on FA on account on having to contend with living in an active conflict zone.

Other the hand, while I'm sure there are Russian artists suffering economically, that is nowhere near as severe as what the Ukrainians are suffering and sending funds to Russian nationals right now mean transferring them through and or to Russian banks that will automatically deduct fees feeding the Russian war effort.

Now while the amount of Russian digital artists may contribute in fees and taxes to the ultimate war effort is relatively small compared to total revenue they are raising, people outside of Russia need to remember two things:

1.) Whether it is bank fees or taxes, this revenue adds up across the economy. These sanctions are working, but they only work if consumers, business, and industries each do their own part to not circumvent the sanctions. (Also, in the States, circumventing these sanctions can carry penalties, which is another reason not to circumvent them or advocate for circumventing them.)

2.) While all the revenue won't necessarily go directly towards the Russian war effort, it's important to deprive both the Russian government and Russian population of those funds to incentivize both to pursue the end of the war. As the Russian people experience a serious drop in their quality of life, they will put pressure their government to end the war. As the Russian government struggles to function amid an economic crisis, it will have to re-prioritize away from fighting Ukraine.

A Russian artist struggling to make ends meet is tough, no doubt, but that struggle might incentivize them to protest and resist their government along with other Russians already doing that. As an aside, I feel like Russian artists don't actually support themselves purely through their art, like most furry artists. So I'm strongly doubting they're going to be starving or homeless due to not getting commissions from abroad.

I'd also add that the longer the war continued, the higher chance they have of being conscripted or suffering hardship, so the war ending is in the interests of people on both sides of the border.

Also if you pay taxes in the US you might've had a few cents land in a group of kids and humanitarian worker in Kabul in the form of a "righteous strike", now what? are you a war criminal? this logic is a pretty deep rabbithole and I don't think anybody really wants to go there.

This is a cheap shot, but sure, I think every American bears some responsibility for what our government does, whether we agree with it or not.

That said, and I don't want fight over this, we invaded Afghanistan because the Taliban harbored terrorists who attacked us. There were some civilian casualties, but the US government didn't deliberately target them like how the Russians clearly are and our military's policies and tactics have changed to minimize civilian casualties going forward.

So it'd be nice if you didn't characterize our military as being similar to the Russians.

Since the purpose of the thread is support Ukraine, I like to point out the Prytula Foundation, which provides equipment and support to the Ukrainian army and has also given aid to Ukrainian civilians.

Homepage:

Благодійний фонд Сергія Притули

prytulafoundation.org

Donation page:

Благодійний фонд Сергія Притули

prytulafoundation.org

 

[Rimna]

Yup, I'm sure that's exactly how it works. Get a couple of thousand of rubles from a few online artists and use that vast amount of money to fund the war.
A couple of artists protesting will make ol' putin say "jeez man maybe they're right, I should stop".

I'm sure that's where they're getting the money for the war from - supposedly taxing money that a handful of people received online. I'm sure the russian government isn't spending the untold billions they have from corruption and doing shady shit for decades across its former soviet states. Or the untold amounts of billions they still get from doing shady shit, or the untold billions they still get from importing goods to other countries.

What are *you* doing to stop these crimes against humanity? Not buying cheap russian art which you've never even bought before anyway? Very heroic. Maybe buy a plane ticket to moscow and go protest there, see what happens? Do you even protest in your own country at all, nice and safe thousands of miles away from russia and its influence? I highly doubt it.
[edit] Let me add: do you constantly donate to the ukranian cause? Do you do anything to help the ukranian women and children who are seeking a place to stay abroad? Is there anything else you do besides pointing fingers online? Somehow I think I already know the answer to that.
[/edit]

Aw man I should have known this earler. I shouldn't have bought that $30 yiff a while back, the white house used that money to bomb the shit out of syria. Ah but it's all good, they said it was a terrorists. Whew, I almost thought I was responsible for bombing children.

 

[Miles Marsalis]

Yup, I'm sure that's exactly how it works. Get a couple of thousand of rubles from a few online artists and use that vast amount of money to fund the war.
A couple of artists protesting will make ol' putin say "jeez man maybe they're right, I should stop".

I'm sure that's where they're getting the money for the war from - supposedly taxing money that a handful of people received online. I'm sure the russian government isn't spending the untold billions they have from corruption and doing shady shit for decades across its former soviet states. Or the untold amounts of billions they still get from doing shady shit, or the untold billions they still get from importing goods to other countries.

What are *you* doing to stop these crimes against humanity? Not buying cheap russian art which you've never even bought before anyway? Very heroic. Maybe buy a plane ticket to moscow and go protest there, see what happens? Do you even protest in your own country at all, nice and safe thousands of miles away from russia and its influence? I highly doubt it.
[edit] Let me add: do you constantly donate to the ukranian cause? Do you do anything to help the ukranian women and children who are seeking a place to stay abroad? Is there anything else you do besides pointing fingers online? Somehow I think I already know the answer to that.
[/edit]

Aw man I should have known this earler. I shouldn't have bought that $30 yiff a while back, the white house used that money to bomb the shit out of syria. Ah but it's all good, they said it was a terrorists. Whew, I almost thought I was responsible for bombing children.

I'm assuming this was for me.

This I'd say there is a lot more people could be doing for Ukraine ... but not buying furry yiff from Russian artists or any good and services from Russia is the bare minimum.

Most of what I do I do through the church I go to, which coordinates Ukrainian Catholic and Orthodox churches here in the city to send money and supplies to Ukraine through the various pipelines the Orthodox churches initially set up here.. Some credit unions here also regularly donate and I make contributions to them and United24. Actually, part of the reason I posted the links here was because the Black Friday push some charities have making to take in funds before the holiday season properly ramps up and a lot of people are too wrapped in preparing for Christmas to donate. I also put up a college friend for week here at our place from Ukraine while she was getting ready to move on to her family here stateside.

Could I be doing more? Probably and I'm trying to, when I can.

And yeah, I've protested for a number of causes in my own country and part of why I've done that is because I support Ukraine.

I'd also add that support for Ukraine and even NATO is not a given here among everybody; there are vocal people with power here who question regularly why we don't let Ukraine and the Baltics fall to appease Russia.

But my point is it's not just what we aren't buying from the Russians. It's about doing everything we can to bring this war to an end as quickly as possible and part of that means we need to deprive the Russian government of all the revenue we can, whether that is from transaction fees or oil revenue like @Pomorek mentioned.

And I would also note that the US military targeted ISIS in Syria, though some civilian were caught in strikes, which is our fault definitely. But there is a big difference between targeting terrorists and accidentally hitting civilians ... and actually targeting civilians as part of a continued terror campaign to seize a peaceful democracy.

 

[Punji]

This isn't about you and you're not the only who needs perspective on this, quite frankly. I see some people who I actually respect here not seeing the bigger picture.

It's not about me and that's why your only initial contribution to the thread was a reply to me from a couple days ago? Like you never saw this thread before for the nine months it's been. It's not about me yet you only bothered to give your two cents until after I said anything, directly in response to me. Uh huh.

I'm not even the first person to express the sentiments in this thread Miles. Like Hell it ain't about your petty little grudges and empty virtue-signalling.

Don't waste my time. This is a relatively tiny source of income for Russia which almost all of which would be spent on the usual things like maintenance, healthcare, and infrastructure. Pretending It's immoral to send a small amount of money to a private citizen is comical and reflective of the very thing you claim to be against. Wild.

 

[Vanessa Howl]

This isn't about you and you're not the only who needs perspective on this, quite frankly. I see some people who I actually respect here not seeing the bigger picture.

Like guys, it's not a big sacrifice to not buy luxury goods and services from a country that illegally invaded a democratic country where it is actively committing human right abuses, especially when country has threatened us with a possible unprovoked nuclear strike and we could be at war with them in the near future.

Now, I would say that the atrocities against the Ukrainian people committed by Russia are pretty dramatic, since you know, people are being driven out of their homes, tortured, and killed. There are Ukrainians on FA for whom this is very dramatic and those who aren't on FA on account on having to contend with living in an active conflict zone.

Other the hand, while I'm sure there are Russian artists suffering economically, that is nowhere near as severe as what the Ukrainians are suffering and sending funds to Russian nationals right now mean transferring them through and or to Russian banks that will automatically deduct fees feeding the Russian war effort.

Now while the amount of Russian digital artists may contribute in fees and taxes to the ultimate war effort is relatively small compared to total revenue they are raising, people outside of Russia need to remember two things:

1.) Whether it is bank fees or taxes, this revenue adds up across the economy. These sanctions are working, but they only work if consumers, business, and industries each do their own part to not circumvent the sanctions. (Also, in the States, circumventing these sanctions can carry penalties, which is another reason not to circumvent them or advocate for circumventing them.)

2.) While all the revenue won't necessarily go directly towards the Russian war effort, it's important to deprive both the Russian government and Russian population of those funds to incentivize both to pursue the end of the war. As the Russian people experience a serious drop in their quality of life, they will put pressure their government to end the war. As the Russian government struggles to function amid an economic crisis, it will have to re-prioritize away from fighting Ukraine.

A Russian artist struggling to make ends meet is tough, no doubt, but that struggle might incentivize them to protest and resist their government along with other Russians already doing that. As an aside, I feel like Russian artists don't actually support themselves purely through their art, like most furry artists. So I'm strongly doubting they're going to be starving or homeless due to not getting commissions from abroad.

I'd also add that the longer the war continued, the higher chance they have of being conscripted or suffering hardship, so the war ending is in the interests of people on both sides of the border.



This is a cheap shot, but sure, I think every American bears some responsibility for what our government does, whether we agree with it or not.

That said, and I don't want fight over this, we invaded Afghanistan because the Taliban harbored terrorists who attacked us. There were some civilian casualties, but the US government didn't deliberately target them like how the Russians clearly are and our military's policies and tactics have changed to minimize civilian casualties going forward.

So it'd be nice if you didn't characterize our military as being similar to the Russians.

Since the purpose of the thread is support Ukraine, I like to point out the Prytula Foundation, which provides equipment and support to the Ukrainian army and has also given aid to Ukrainian civilians.

Homepage:

Благодійний фонд Сергія Притули

prytulafoundation.org

Donation page:

Благодійний фонд Сергія Притули

prytulafoundation.org

I need to chime in again here.

My stance on this is more out of sympathy than anything else: I'm not the kind that commissions a lot of art (I've done it a couple of times but it's not something I'm doing a lot of) and I'm not the kind of person that worships artists just for being able to draw (in fact, I find a lot of artists to be a little big for their britches...to put it politely) so for me NONE of this is about the actual art. For me, it's knowing that events like this tend to stir up hate towards people that don't deserve it and I know that there are people that will actively not give a Russian their business simply because of something that said Russian has no control over (be honest: how many of AMERICA'S wars do you think YOU could stop? Now imagine if the American government could have you arrested for trying or was using heavy propaganda to tell you that all those wars were 100% justified while actively hiding the truth) and this is the kind of thing that can last LONG after the actual war has ended (just look at all the people that still hate Russia because of the cold war or hate Germans because of WWII. I had a teacher back in high school who was bullied for being part German and she was NOT much older than we were).

Case in point is that I feel bad for them because I'm sure a lot of them are being avoided simply because they're Russian and while the war as a whole is shitty, it's simply unfair to punish people that have nothing to do with it and no actual say in the matter (it wouldn't be communism if they did. Or at least Putin's version of it).

You realistically can't do anything to actually help Ukraine: it is war and unless you're actively fighting in it, you're not making nearly enough of a impact to end it. But you CAN help ward off hate for the Russian people by at least not actively rejecting services from them just because their government sucks.

Never forget who the actual villain of this story is just because it's easier to get to the pawns than him.

 

[Pomorek]

If anyone wants to make points on virtue signaling, they first will have to out-signal me, who is not driving and in this way denying some tens of $ to Pootin every damn single day.

Stupid jokes aside: I stand with @ssaannttoo . There are no clearly good solutions left in this case we're discussing. Working arguments can be made for placing a strong statement and wanting to block any little stream of revenue to the Russian Federation that is in one's power. Working arguments can be made for not shunning the subset of the Russian population which is the most like us, is most likely to have relatable values and least likely to fall for Pootin's warmongering. It's a choice that everyone needs to make for oneself and heated arguments will have no effect except potentially locking the thread.

Ultimately this is largely theoretical for me personally since I don't buy commissions. But I need to agree with @Vanessa Howl here. Being very concerned about Ukraine, I still can't ignore the "smaller" worry about those Russians who aren't complete a-holes but are stuck there with all this, powerless to get anything changed (pretty much like we've been in Poland for 45 years following the WW2). We may have no good way of aiding them. But hate only generates hate and driving a wedge between the West and those groups in Russia which would like to see their country changed for the better is very likely fulfilling Pootin's wishes too.

 

[ssaannttoo]

I wanna come up in this place and slap down some mega logic!

Nobody actually cares about what happens here. It seems that nobody actually knows how to communicate with anybody else, all people are doing is saying the same points again and again (hitting your heads against a wall) hoping that somebody will see your point differently. If you actually wish to have a change stop what you’re doing have a conversation with the person, find out why they care about their position and then find a different way to communicate your point.

ALSO, I don’t think the 2-3 people that will be swayed here will have any impact on Russia. I know Punji doesn’t get art, I only get art from free raffles, I’ve never seen frank getting any art, I know nothing about the others. So I think this debate is grasping at straws to try and take a moral high ground. That y’all think translates to other positions, which seems mega gae

 

[Frank Gulotta]

This isn't about you and you're not the only who needs perspective on this, quite frankly. I see some people who I actually respect here not seeing the bigger picture.

Like guys, it's not a big sacrifice to not buy luxury goods and services from a country that illegally invaded a democratic country where it is actively committing human right abuses, especially when country has threatened us with a possible unprovoked nuclear strike and we could be at war with them in the near future.

Now, I would say that the atrocities against the Ukrainian people committed by Russia are pretty dramatic, since you know, people are being driven out of their homes, tortured, and killed. There are Ukrainians on FA for whom this is very dramatic and those who aren't on FA on account on having to contend with living in an active conflict zone.

Other the hand, while I'm sure there are Russian artists suffering economically, that is nowhere near as severe as what the Ukrainians are suffering and sending funds to Russian nationals right now mean transferring them through and or to Russian banks that will automatically deduct fees feeding the Russian war effort.

Now while the amount of Russian digital artists may contribute in fees and taxes to the ultimate war effort is relatively small compared to total revenue they are raising, people outside of Russia need to remember two things:

1.) Whether it is bank fees or taxes, this revenue adds up across the economy. These sanctions are working, but they only work if consumers, business, and industries each do their own part to not circumvent the sanctions. (Also, in the States, circumventing these sanctions can carry penalties, which is another reason not to circumvent them or advocate for circumventing them.)

2.) While all the revenue won't necessarily go directly towards the Russian war effort, it's important to deprive both the Russian government and Russian population of those funds to incentivize both to pursue the end of the war. As the Russian people experience a serious drop in their quality of life, they will put pressure their government to end the war. As the Russian government struggles to function amid an economic crisis, it will have to re-prioritize away from fighting Ukraine.

A Russian artist struggling to make ends meet is tough, no doubt, but that struggle might incentivize them to protest and resist their government along with other Russians already doing that. As an aside, I feel like Russian artists don't actually support themselves purely through their art, like most furry artists. So I'm strongly doubting they're going to be starving or homeless due to not getting commissions from abroad.

I'd also add that the longer the war continued, the higher chance they have of being conscripted or suffering hardship, so the war ending is in the interests of people on both sides of the border.



This is a cheap shot, but sure, I think every American bears some responsibility for what our government does, whether we agree with it or not.

That said, and I don't want fight over this, we invaded Afghanistan because the Taliban harbored terrorists who attacked us. There were some civilian casualties, but the US government didn't deliberately target them like how the Russians clearly are and our military's policies and tactics have changed to minimize civilian casualties going forward.

So it'd be nice if you didn't characterize our military as being similar to the Russians.

Since the purpose of the thread is support Ukraine, I like to point out the Prytula Foundation, which provides equipment and support to the Ukrainian army and has also given aid to Ukrainian civilians.

Homepage:

Благодійний фонд Сергія Притули

prytulafoundation.org

Donation page:

Благодійний фонд Сергія Притули

prytulafoundation.org

Dude you've literally worked in China, where every company with over 10 workers is required to be linked to the government (which is committing genocide currently) you can shove your misplaced sense of self-importance and self-righteousness in that place where the sun never shines and it stinks very much