Been scratched by old fences, stepped on dirty nails and had pets cut me with their dirt covered claws.
I get sick after all the vaccines though a day long fever (or a week long sore arm) but it's no big deal.
Vaccniations
- Thread starter Willow
- Start date
BouncyOtter
Member
I'm sooooo glad I haven't seen more than a couple of people that don't want to get vaccinations. If not for yourselves, for those around you, especially if you are around young children and babies.
LegitWaterfall
Forever done
Considering the outbreak from Texas' last vaccine clinic . . .
We could do without them. I got the Swine Flu and beat it without the medicine. It was hell but I lived.
We could do without them. I got the Swine Flu and beat it without the medicine. It was hell but I lived.
BouncyOtter
Member
The measles outbreak? The one where the majority of the patients were not vaccinated?
LegitWaterfall
Forever done
No, I believe it was only in my town, but some people were getting awful reactions they considered diseases from the vaccinations. They said it might have been unclean needles.
Dreaming
Member
I had a vaccination way back in my highschool days but I forget what the Hell it was, all I remember is staring the nurse in the eyes and saying "NO I WILL NOT LOOK AWAY I NEED TO WATCH THIS SHIT"... yeah they're dangerous because they scare the fuck outta me, but somehow it's worse if you don't watch
Aetius
It's Me Gordon, Barney from Black Mesa
Tell that to the average person that live in the 1940s about Polio.
LegitWaterfall
Forever done
I thought we were talking about society now.
In that case, I'm all for them.
Scath-mac-tire
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An excess in any medicine turns into a poison, with that in mind I still don't mind vaccinations. Although I hate the thought of getting stabbed, the benefits seem to outweigh the pain. Except when the people miss, never happened to me and I hope it never will.
Mayfurr
Mostly Harmless
<nods> And those who suffered from smallpox. Vaccination was how smallpox was eradicated.
powderhound
Active Member
Can we keep your unvaccinated kid alive? Yeah probably.
Is it a pain in the ass? You bet.
Think about this. A well appearing child with a fever who is unvaccinated has a 5% chance of having a life-threatening bacterial infection. Increased risk (10%) under 3. Numbers vary depending on herd immunity but those are daunting figures for a physician. This means your unvaccinated child with a fever gets the kitchen sink thrown at them, hard. IVs, massive amounts of tests, blood work, radiation, catheters, spinal taps, mandatory IV antibiotics, hospital admission… It's a huge production and there's a lot of screaming involved on all sides.
The kids gonna get a fever and if you bring them in, all that workup is far more dangerous, not to mention traumatizing, for the child (and the parent) than the vaccination series. The parents are crying, the kids crying, everyone nearby is crying and the cost? Stupid expensive. Not to mention the child could die, and if they do you can bet there's going to be a multi-million dollar lawsuit. Dead childern are big money, cases are almost always settled, even if the parents are at fault. A doctor that wants to keep their shirt will go for the kitchen sink and take no prisoners.
3 month old vaccinated? Chance of life threatening bacterial infection .1%. Stay at home and give Tylenol. Cost 5 cents. Everyone's happy except the lawyers and the funeral home.
The people that are the most confusing are the ones who bring there child to the doctor but won't let them perform any tests or give any medication after not vaccinating. "Don't you have anything homeopathic?" Why did you come to a doctor if you won't let them do anything?
That's not to say that all homeopathy is bad. Most physicians now are trained to practice 'evidence based medicine' and there are some remedies who's safety and efficacy are established.
But major injuries caused by the homeopathic 'medications' are common. I always found it odd that a parent would not give their child something that has been rigorously proven to be safe and beneficial but then apply a herbal product to their kids eyes having no idea where it came from or what's in it? Turns out it was mostly citrus extract mixed with alcohol. That explains why their eyes are burned and they havent stopped screaming for 3 days. "Do you have anything homeopathic we can use for that?" Face paw.
Frighteningly there's a lot of homeopathic stuff used by adults that can kill your child in a few drops. One parent applied a remedy that also contained oil of wintergreen to soothe their baby. One teaspoon contained enough salicylate to kill the kid 4x over.
The road to hell is paved with good intentions.
The numbers speak for themselves. The benefits far outweigh the risks for many (not all) vaccinations.
Is it a pain in the ass? You bet.
Think about this. A well appearing child with a fever who is unvaccinated has a 5% chance of having a life-threatening bacterial infection. Increased risk (10%) under 3. Numbers vary depending on herd immunity but those are daunting figures for a physician. This means your unvaccinated child with a fever gets the kitchen sink thrown at them, hard. IVs, massive amounts of tests, blood work, radiation, catheters, spinal taps, mandatory IV antibiotics, hospital admission… It's a huge production and there's a lot of screaming involved on all sides.
The kids gonna get a fever and if you bring them in, all that workup is far more dangerous, not to mention traumatizing, for the child (and the parent) than the vaccination series. The parents are crying, the kids crying, everyone nearby is crying and the cost? Stupid expensive. Not to mention the child could die, and if they do you can bet there's going to be a multi-million dollar lawsuit. Dead childern are big money, cases are almost always settled, even if the parents are at fault. A doctor that wants to keep their shirt will go for the kitchen sink and take no prisoners.
3 month old vaccinated? Chance of life threatening bacterial infection .1%. Stay at home and give Tylenol. Cost 5 cents. Everyone's happy except the lawyers and the funeral home.
The people that are the most confusing are the ones who bring there child to the doctor but won't let them perform any tests or give any medication after not vaccinating. "Don't you have anything homeopathic?" Why did you come to a doctor if you won't let them do anything?
That's not to say that all homeopathy is bad. Most physicians now are trained to practice 'evidence based medicine' and there are some remedies who's safety and efficacy are established.
But major injuries caused by the homeopathic 'medications' are common. I always found it odd that a parent would not give their child something that has been rigorously proven to be safe and beneficial but then apply a herbal product to their kids eyes having no idea where it came from or what's in it? Turns out it was mostly citrus extract mixed with alcohol. That explains why their eyes are burned and they havent stopped screaming for 3 days. "Do you have anything homeopathic we can use for that?" Face paw.
Frighteningly there's a lot of homeopathic stuff used by adults that can kill your child in a few drops. One parent applied a remedy that also contained oil of wintergreen to soothe their baby. One teaspoon contained enough salicylate to kill the kid 4x over.
The road to hell is paved with good intentions.
The numbers speak for themselves. The benefits far outweigh the risks for many (not all) vaccinations.
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How about those with bad immune systems?
Or those who are very susceptible to the complications that could come of it?
CaptainCool
Lady of the lake
Vaccination is incredibly important. So many lives have been saved because of it, it's one of the most amazing discoveries ever.
Some times it can be bullshit though. Like, vaccination against influenza is pretty much pointless in my opinion. The virus changes all the damn time, making a vaccine almost pointless because you have to get a vaccine way too often. And many people react badly to influenza vaccination.
If you have a weak immune system and catch every disease that is going wild right now, sure. In that case it probably makes sense to get a vaccine.
But healthy average Joe probably doesn't need it.
Some times it can be bullshit though. Like, vaccination against influenza is pretty much pointless in my opinion. The virus changes all the damn time, making a vaccine almost pointless because you have to get a vaccine way too often. And many people react badly to influenza vaccination.
If you have a weak immune system and catch every disease that is going wild right now, sure. In that case it probably makes sense to get a vaccine.
But healthy average Joe probably doesn't need it.
Rilvor
Formal when angry
People are happy to believe there's an explanation for everything, but not those ones I don't like.
It's situations like this that make one wonder how much control a parent should legally have over their child's health. It's a damn shame to see children killed by stupid parents.
It's situations like this that make one wonder how much control a parent should legally have over their child's health. It's a damn shame to see children killed by stupid parents.
Phyllostachys
Feigning intelligence
Alas, for certain diseases, such as Hepatitis B, immunity gained through vaccinations can disappear if one is not exposed to corresponding disease for a long period. In these cases, it is preferable to get repeat vaccinations periodically.
And in case of Influenza virus, people need to get vaccinated annually because different virus strains circulate ever year, and in some cases, even mutate into new strain. Unfortunately, this means that we have to predict which strain would be circulating in a particular year, and if the prediction does not match the circulating strain, the vaccination can be less effective(though not effectless) in that season.
CaptainCool
Lady of the lake
Yeah, it's always a damn shame if the death of a person could have been avoided because of that...
Stupidity actually does kill :c
powderhound
Active Member
Yes but our society rewards and protects stupidity.
Eventually the kid gets sick enough that the parents either consent or it becomes emergent consent and medicine takes the parents out of the decision making loop. You can sort it out with protective services or a bench warrant later. If they make it out the door and a doctor tells the cops to go get the kid, they will. A doctor sticks his neck out a bit but in the end is more likely to be successfully sued by the parents for letting them be stupid vs trying to get you for 'kidnaping, assault and battery' by treating their kid against their will.
Thing is, if your unvaccinated kid gets the bug, by the time we figure it out it's often to late. One of the vaccines is for Haemophilus influenza B the second is for pneumococcus. These bacteria cause life-threatening blood and brain infections in children. Even with the best prompt care the child is still likely to suffer permanent disability or death. They may spend the rest of their adult life walking around with tubes in their brain, brain damage, seizures.
Doctors that practiced before these vaccines remember children dying of this. Today it's almost unheard of EXCEPT in the first month of life where vaccinated or not they have no immunity.
There's a reason when you're unvaccinated child comes to the emergency room with a fever it's treated like a heart attack or stroke. It's an emergency. The doctor sees your child immediately as if they were dying, IV antibiotics are started before any test results are obtained because literary minutes count. Even with prompt treatment the outcomes can be bad.
If the parent stayed at home with their child it would be simple natural selection. But society doesn't let doctors embrace natural selection and instead rewards stupidity. When the parents end up with a brain damaged child they win millions and society cares for the child for the rest of its damaged life. The parents are never at fault for not vaccinating, 'if the police had found me sooner or the doctors had just started the antibiotics a few minutes sooner I'm sure everything would have been fine... It's their fault.' Case law pretty much shows the jury's feel bad for the sobbing mother saddled with medical bills and almost university give her a cash reward from the faceless malpractice insurance company who doesn't need it anyway. The hospital will settle rather than defend the doctor. It's just cheaper in the end but the doctor takes the hit against his/her record.
It's not fair to society but most of all it's not fair to the child who became an unwilling pawn in the parents ideological chess game and is forced to live with the consciences.
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Mayfurr
Mostly Harmless
Definitely agree with you on the whole "if you wanted alternative medicine why did you come to see a friggin' doctor?" thing, but I think you might be confusing homeopathy with naturopathy (or something else). Homeopathy is the weird idea that diluting something down to the point where there's not a single molecule of the original substance left in the solution somehow makes it medicine, in other words all homeopathic "remedies" are all just water. The only way you could die from a homeopathic "overdose" is by drowning in the stuff.
The "oil of wintergreen" example sounds more like naturopathy. It's still friggin' stupid, as all the good bits from natural remedies that actually work have been purified and called medicine.
Willow
FAF's #1 Terrorist
They could argue that the parent is endangering the welfare of a child. Like if the police or DCFS have reason to believe you're neglecting the child's health I think they can get a warrant to take the child away to be treated.
The only exception to the rules I guess would be if your religion doesn't allow for vaccinations. Which I still don't totally get but whatever.
But they can't not treat a sick child in any other case.
powderhound
Active Member
Yes your right. I'm used to hearing people commonly talking about their "homeopathic" alternative remadies but this not the correct term.
Schloendorff v. Society of New York Hospital:
“Every human being of adult years and sound mind has a right to determine what shall be done with his own body."
Many legal precedents involving minors have been set. When the child's life is in danger the principle from Prince v. Massachusetts is clear:
“Parents may be free to become martyrs themselves. But it does not follow they are free, in identical circumstance, to make martyrs of their children before they have reached the age of full and legal discretion...the right to practice religion freely does not include the liberty to expose...the child...to ill health or death.â€
If the child is able to make decisions for themselves that's another matter.
Should that be extended to non emergency treatment that could prevent ill health or death like vaccinations?
Ethical decisions are hard but the law is more forgiving in emergency cases. In a true emergency there generally is not be time to involve ethics committees, child protective services, lawyers and judges. The law gives a physician enormous latitude to assault and violate people's rights in ways no one else can if in good faith and their best judgment they believe it's reasonably necessary. The physician must have some understanding of what lines have been drawn in the sand already. When the dust settles could the doctor be exposed to liability? Yes. But the teaching generally is that liability is greater withholding care than providing it in controversial cases. Doctors have to make and live with these choices every day.
Things eventualy will be decided on a case by case basis but in an emergency the authorities generally side with the judgement of the physician. I have never heard a judge or officer of the law even consider taking on the liability of a negative outcome by going against a physicians recommendation in an emergency situation. "So your accepting full responsibility if this person dies?" The conversation usually doesn't go beyond that.
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