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Vent Thread

Attaman

"I say we forget this business and run."
There's nothin "Olympian" about NFL, WWF or WWE.
That's exactly my point. You're talking about how men will always have advantages over women, but the thing about that entire argument is that - even if taken 100% as accurate with zero contention - it relies on the argument that sports are already filled with peak examples. Which... they aren't. Likewise this whole distinction thing has been fairly binary at this point and we haven't even broken into how integrated teams would impact trans, otherwise non-binary, and so-on players. Or how groups like WWE - again - are more performative than actual feats anyways.

EDIT: I will take this point to clarify that I'm not saying physical abilities matter NIL when it comes to stuff like Football. But take a look at where NFL athletes get drawn from and you'll see certain patterns from which teams, institutes, and so-on tend to be picked from most frequently. Physicality isn't even the deciding factor among exclusively male teams so much as ability to hype / advertise, which universities / teams they had the luck of convenience to be able to filter into before draft, and so-on.
 

Jaredthefox92

Well-Known Member
That's exactly my point. You're talking about how men will always have advantages over women, but the thing about that entire argument is that - even if taken 100% as accurate with zero contention - it relies on the argument that sports are already filled with peak examples. Which... they aren't. Likewise this whole distinction thing has been fairly binary at this point and we haven't even broken into how integrated teams would impact trans, otherwise non-binary, and so-on players. Or how groups like WWE - again - are more performative than actual feats anyways.

Sure, put words into my mouth without the proper context.

I will stop you right here, I will not have the whole social justice "but the trans, the non-binary", if you bring that into this conversation I will block you outright as I do not wish to listen to social justice dribble when talking about sports. However, I will inform you that while you're right on not every player being 100% peak, a lot of these sports condition you to be your peak. Let's stay on topic about women in the fields of sports directly, case in point you wouldn't put a woman against the Rock of Hulk Hogan and not expect it to be a thematic match where they lose on purpose.
 

Firuthi Dragovic

Gamer Dragon, former speedrunner
Oh yeah, and I guess stuff like gas stoves and the like too would probably give way to electric, as a more personal example for many people (since not everyone here has cars or fancy computers or whatnot, but I'm willing to bet that most at least know somebody with a gas stove and / or gas heating).
I seriously have to ask what areas that aren't middle-of-nowhere and subject to dangerous power outages (like freezing cold regions, or owned by people with medical devices that MUST be powered constantly) still use gas stoves. My region TECHNICALLY has both problems and while my family swears by gas stoves, when I get my own place I'd SERIOUSLY consider electric stoves.

.....assuming I could also work in solar with a backup battery (I insist on backup power because it's my understanding that the solar panel itself actually DOESN'T WORK during a power outage - something about safety features so solar users aren't hurting utility workers). The only other options of cooking during a blizzard don't really seem strong enough. and hot food and a good blanket are less polluting than a wood fireplace (yes, really, I've used them before) when it comes to heating.

Space is solved ten ways to Sunday with the main points of contention being how high up you want to build and how you plan to build up (staggering layers, hive cities, certain varieties of arcologies, etcetera).
Got another one to throw on to this thought if you're addressing Americans who are still too squeamish about high buildings after the incident from 20 years ago:

Aren't there a lot of "degraded" cities (by which I mean cities that built big, but are either in really poor shape or outright dying) that could get revitalized with even a little investment in the existing infrastructure, and lure some people to spread out so the space issue isn't as big of a deal? (I'm actually approaching this from a "big bucks for a greedy businessman" angle as I realize it may be necessary to bypass political will here - this one unfortunately requires a businessperson who actually cares about profit and isn't obsessed with cutting costs above all else, as said "degraded" city may actually have other traits that result in bringing in a MUCH bigger haul than the planning meeting suggested.)

I could probably have addressed parts of the post all day, but I figure just keep it to those two.



Incidentally, your post reminds me that there's a certain orthodoxy to modern business that REALLY pisses me off, and that's "only one way to do it as it's cheaper". There's a certain level of redundancy that, even if you route it through cheaper clients, becomes a HUGE benefit when the rich client has something go wrong.

....let me know if this is not explaining well and I'll try to elaborate.
 

Attaman

"I say we forget this business and run."
Sure, put words into my mouth without the proper context.
But that is the context. Professional sports are already not decided by peak physical specimens, but a mix of various factors that includes - but is not limited to - physical evaluation very unlike going down a line of show animals. And again, even if one argues that the average male will have distinct advantages over the average female (and that the peak male will have advantages over the peak female) with zero contention, there's a huge range between both as well as an enormous population with which to draw from rendering this moot on the professional sports scale. There's approximately ~1800 active players in the NFL. The US male population is approximately 138 million. By the same token, I've shared the total number of women in the United States. There's such a large market to draw from that ability to make yourself known to the NFL is at times one of the biggest hurdles.

I will stop you right here, I will not have the whole social justice
Of note: This entire discussion started because of a matter of integrating sports teams and contention over legislation against trans athletes. Jumping in to say you don't want to talk about trans athletes in a discussion that was specifically started in relation to legislation against them is... it's kind of like joining in a discussion about whether pies or cakes are better and saying you don't want to deal with any discussions relating to dessert foods.
case in point you wouldn't put a woman against the Rock of Hulk Hogan and not expect it to be a thematic match where they lose on purpose.
I mean, disregarding that the Rock and Hulk Hogan are:
1) Old
2) Professional actors, not professional athletes
3) Not the best in their field anyhow

Yeah, I... could readily see several woman getting into a legit wrestling match with them and expect them to beat their ass in a manner other than the Rock / Hogan jobbing it. Because they're nowhere near as competent or physical as being made out to be, nor are women athletes specializing in the field of physical wrestling / grappling sports as fragile.

I seriously have to ask what areas that aren't middle-of-nowhere and subject to dangerous power outages (like freezing cold regions, or owned by people with medical devices that MUST be powered constantly) still use gas stoves. My region TECHNICALLY has both problems and while my family swears by gas stoves, when I get my own place I'd SERIOUSLY consider electric stoves.
My apartment hasn't been renovated since the early 00's and was built long before that, so its stoves still use gas. On one hand they have a convenience, but on the other they really should go for numerous reasons environmental and health-wise.
.....assuming I could also work in solar with a backup battery (I insist on backup power because it's my understanding that the solar panel itself actually DOESN'T WORK during a power outage - something about safety features so solar users aren't hurting utility workers). The only other options of cooking during a blizzard don't really seem strong enough. and hot food and a good blanket are less polluting than a wood fireplace (yes, really, I've used them before) when it comes to heating.
That's, arguably, a large part of why they've stuck around so long.
Got another one to throw on to this thought if you're addressing Americans who are still too squeamish about high buildings after the incident from 20 years ago:

Aren't there a lot of "degraded" cities (by which I mean cities that built big, but are either in really poor shape or outright dying) that could get revitalized with even a little investment in the existing infrastructure, and lure some people to spread out so the space issue isn't as big of a deal?
Aye, though in the US one of the issues is that our cities are extremely poorly designed (by purposeful design) so as to be nigh-unliveable without access to either:
1) Public transportation
2) Private transportation

Unfortunately, what else are US cities infamous for having poor infrastructure of?

Thanks for bringing up the above as it's a great stepping stone / example of another thing that could relatively easily be fixed if people wanted to invest the time and money into it, but instead keeps getting kicked down the road for one reason or another. Invest in updating a lot of pre-existing (and, in many cases, currently vacant) property through either remodel or knocking it down and rebuilding, establish a functional layout and / or public transportation network to make habitation viable, and you could readily increase the populations of many cities without really having to go any further up or out than they are already.
Incidentally, your post reminds me that there's a certain orthodoxy to modern business that REALLY pisses me off, and that's "only one way to do it as it's cheaper". There's a certain level of redundancy that, even if you route it through cheaper clients, becomes a HUGE benefit when the rich client has something go wrong.

....let me know if this is not explaining well and I'll try to elaborate.
I think I get what you mean. And while the finer points might arguably verge into political discussion (a large part of why I've used specific counter-examples in the quote chain above yours, as well as vague-posted about how numerous cited changes might actually be accomplished), it's definitely on topic and a part of why the drive isn't there in many cases. Short term has increasingly been prioritized over long term (not just in regards to profit, but in regards to completing projects and building things piecemeal as needed and whatnot), in no small part because it tends to be cheaper, and that's a thing that has to be changed as the more complex an equation gets the harder it is to keep fudging it as you go without any sort of set plan or fallback.
 

Jaredthefox92

Well-Known Member
But that is the context. Professional sports are already not decided by peak physical specimens, but a mix of various factors that includes - but is not limited to - physical evaluation very unlike going down a line of show animals. And again, even if one argues that the average male will have distinct advantages over the average female (and that the peak male will have advantages over the peak female) with zero contention, there's a huge range between both as well as an enormous population with which to draw from rendering this moot on the professional sports scale. There's approximately ~1800 active players in the NFL. The US male population is approximately 138 million. By the same token, I've shared the total number of women in the United States. There's such a large market to draw from that ability to make yourself known to the NFL is at times one of the biggest hurdles.


Of note: This entire discussion started because of a matter of integrating sports teams and contention over legislation against trans athletes. Jumping in to say you don't want to talk about trans athletes in a discussion that was specifically started in relation to legislation against them is... it's kind of like joining in a discussion about whether pies or cakes are better and saying you don't want to deal with any discussions relating to dessert foods.

I mean, disregarding that the Rock and Hulk Hogan are:
1) Old
2) Professional actors, not professional athletes
3) Not the best in their field anyhow

Yeah, I... could readily see several woman getting into a legit wrestling match with them and expect them to beat their ass in a manner other than the Rock / Hogan jobbing it. Because they're nowhere near as competent or physical as being made out to be, nor are women athletes specializing in the field of physical wrestling / grappling sports as fragile.


My apartment hasn't been renovated since the early 00's and was built long before that, so its stoves still use gas. On one hand they have a convenience, but on the other they really should go for numerous reasons environmental and health-wise.

That's, arguably, a large part of why they've stuck around so long.

Aye, though in the US one of the issues is that our cities are extremely poorly designed (by purposeful design) so as to be nigh-unliveable without access to either:
1) Public transportation
2) Private transportation

Unfortunately, what else are US cities infamous for having poor infrastructure of?

Thanks for bringing up the above as it's a great stepping stone / example of another thing that could relatively easily be fixed if people wanted to invest the time and money into it, but instead keeps getting kicked down the road for one reason or another. Invest in updating a lot of pre-existing (and, in many cases, currently vacant) property through either remodel or knocking it down and rebuilding, establish a functional layout and / or public transportation network to make habitation viable, and you could readily increase the populations of many cities without really having to go any further up or out than they are already.

I think I get what you mean. And while the finer points might arguably verge into political discussion (a large part of why I've used specific counter-examples in the quote chain above yours, as well as vague-posted about how numerous cited changes might actually be accomplished), it's definitely on topic and a part of why the drive isn't there in many cases. Short term has increasingly been prioritized over long term (not just in regards to profit, but in regards to completing projects and building things piecemeal as needed and whatnot), in no small part because it tends to be cheaper, and that's a thing that has to be changed as the more complex an equation gets the harder it is to keep fudging it as you go without any sort of set plan or fallback.

Okay, I warned ya. I am not here to hear about social justice. I am here to talk about sports.
 

Lucyfur

United forever in friendship and labour
Banned
People want to talk biological elements in sports and some BS on gender when in weight classes and experience there isn't any marked division of advantages.
BUT There are marked advantages to other elements of biology outside of the construct of gender. that is you have athletes like Phelps with larger lungs and anomalous productions of acids and such that boosts him above his competition to arguably unfair levels. Same with height or reach etc etc. there are many biological points that go into things that have more sense in weighing advantages than just "man strong woman weak" BS.

Also if you think women cant and aren't competitive you'd be wrong and obviously never played Mario Kart 8 or Splatoon 2 with my partner. (Partial joke note because fuck you thats why but really women are competitive just not as physically and aggressively toxic about it).

To further delve into things though IF you are so hard pressed into maintaining gendered split in sports perhaps look into how trans women who medically transition have no marked advantage as studied over women (and have been allowed to participate in the Olympics for years mind you yet none have qualified to partake though the Olympic council did go for a cis woman Caster Semenya because she produces more T than the average cis woman). Also you have cases like Patricio Manuel a trans man who debuted in professional boxing and beat a cis man.

A big point also not being noted in this especially for the "Oh but the women" crowd out there is that in most every case where trans women are allowed to compete there are strict guidelines imposed upon them medically like having been medically transitioning for X time and there hormone levels being at certain points many times thanks to medication like HRT that are much lower than those levels. There is no domination of sports by trans individuals and it isnt from baring them from participation that causes that mind you.

And I will also note that again those who push things to bar trans identities from participating in sports also put in there the authority to check genitals. Like... idk is this really about "preserving and protecting" or is this just another excuse for in places like Florida for a certain group to have an excuse to peep at kiddies.
 

Jaredthefox92

Well-Known Member
People want to talk biological elements in sports and some BS on gender when in weight classes and experience there isn't any marked division of advantages.
BUT There are marked advantages to other elements of biology outside of the construct of gender. that is you have athletes like Phelps with larger lungs and anomalous productions of acids and such that boosts him above his competition to arguably unfair levels. Same with height or reach etc etc. there are many biological points that go into things that have more sense in weighing advantages than just "man strong woman weak" BS.

Also if you think women cant and aren't competitive you'd be wrong and obviously never played Mario Kart 8 or Splatoon 2 with my partner. (Partial joke note because fuck you thats why but really women are competitive just not as physically and aggressively toxic about it).

To further delve into things though IF you are so hard pressed into maintaining gendered split in sports perhaps look into how trans women who medically transition have no marked advantage as studied over women (and have been allowed to participate in the Olympics for years mind you yet none have qualified to partake though the Olympic council did go for a cis woman Caster Semenya because she produces more T than the average cis woman). Also you have cases like Patricio Manuel a trans man who debuted in professional boxing and beat a cis man.

A big point also not being noted in this especially for the "Oh but the women" crowd out there is that in most every case where trans women are allowed to compete there are strict guidelines imposed upon them medically like having been medically transitioning for X time and there hormone levels being at certain points many times thanks to medication like HRT that are much lower than those levels. There is no domination of sports by trans individuals and it isnt from baring them from participation that causes that mind you.

And I will also note that again those who push things to bar trans identities from participating in sports also put in there the authority to check genitals. Like... idk is this really about "preserving and protecting" or is this just another excuse for in places like Florida for a certain group to have an excuse to peep at kiddies.

I should have blocked you a long time ago tbh, but you can join them.
 

Lucyfur

United forever in friendship and labour
Banned
I should have blocked you a long time ago tbh, but you can join them.
Ah quite the astute rebuttal there. you have provided so much words of wisdom on your position and everything.
 

Attaman

"I say we forget this business and run."
To add something new to the thread: Whose bright idea was it to make nice, warm, bright and sunny weekend days so relaxing that you could just easily lay down and fall asleep for a couple hours? These are my days off, damnit! I shouldn't be spending them contemplating using 1/8th to 1/6th the day sleeping.
 

Firuthi Dragovic

Gamer Dragon, former speedrunner
To further delve into things though IF you are so hard pressed into maintaining gendered split in sports perhaps look into how trans women who medically transition have no marked advantage as studied over women (and have been allowed to participate in the Olympics for years mind you yet none have qualified to partake though the Olympic council did go for a cis woman Caster Semenya because she produces more T than the average cis woman). Also you have cases like Patricio Manuel a trans man who debuted in professional boxing and beat a cis man.
....about the "no marked advantage" one, were those from early-life transitions or recent transitions? I ask a detail like this because there was a bit of a kerfuffle over a trans woman weightlifter not too long ago and that was the main sticking point that kept coming up (regardless of legitimacy). And given all the Internet chaff and not having a local, I really haven't had another good opportunity to just resolve that and be assured I went to the right sources.


Incidentally, I've been having more issues with conversational intent. I read someone say one thing, I try to respond in terms of that one thing, and it turns out the phrase is wholly different.

Believe it or not, trans is actually where it happened this time.

I hear a lot about social norms regarding gender. I see someone bring up "wrong puberty". Now, to my mind, this implies there's a correct one, so I wind up mentally registering that as an elitist jab. Logic being, it's my understanding that a good portion of the trans community still grows up as a gender other than the one with which they identify, and telling them they had to do it a certain way makes their anxieties about the whole thing worse.

Nope!

It was actually explained to me that it's more of a "body horror" thing. (I'm specifically trying not to use the fancier words, as I may eventually have to explain it to someone and refraining from lingo might make an explanation easier.) I'd ask for stories that could demonstrate this concept, but I keep thinking that the only ones that can do it right are too NSFW to just be sharing all willy-nilly.

(The explainer also mentioned "harder to pass later in life" but that one kind of relies on social norms as it is.)
 
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Hi-FiWolf95

Metal Misanthrope
Laugh in the faces of those saying "the United States is the best country in the world", or, "The Land of The Free and opportunity", when they are constantly worrying about what authority is going to do next to them.
 

Mineph

New Member
You don't get it, the biological peak of a woman is not the biological peak of a male. Yeah, you could nerf one group for the other, but you're still not factoring in the differences.

Whatever the sport would just have to accommodate the female, biologically the male still are going to have the advantage just for sheer biology alone.
Pardon me for butting in on this conversation; but can I ask your opinion on what the differences between men and women are in the context of the sports you mentioned?
(I don't mean to come off as aggressive or confrontational at all-- I'm just genuinely curious. You don't have to respond if you don't want to though!)
 

Jaredthefox92

Well-Known Member
Pardon me for butting in on this conversation; but can I ask your opinion on what the differences between men and women are in the context of the sports you mentioned?
(I don't mean to come off as aggressive or confrontational at all-- I'm just genuinely curious. You don't have to respond if you don't want to though!)

My opinion isn't that women cannot have their own sports teams or play in casual sports teams with men. My issue is that with certain very competitive sports, where might and muscle mass, and size do indeed matter. Women would more than likely get injured in sports where physical confrontation is mandatory and you playoff against conditioned men who play competitively. As in, putting a woman to be tackled by men if they have a football or being in a wrestling tournament.
 

Hi-FiWolf95

Metal Misanthrope
I'm reluctant to believe anyone here actually gives a fuck about sports anyway, I could be wrong though. Most people who end up in either side of these types of arguments seem to either not even give two fucks about sports, have any knowledge and passion in it, and/or, just watch ESPN when the Super Bowl comes on annually, as an American tradition just to party.
 

Firuthi Dragovic

Gamer Dragon, former speedrunner
I'm reluctant to believe anyone here actually gives a fuck about sports anyway, I could be wrong though. Most people who end up in either side of these types of arguments seem to either not even give two fucks about sports, have any knowledge and passion in it, and/or, just watch ESPN when the Super Bowl comes on annually, as an American tradition just to party.
Main reason sports is getting involved in this discussion at all is the idea that "if they can get away with this restriction in sports, they can get away with more restrictions".

It's Niemöller logic (y'know, Mr. "First they came for"). While it's not without precedent, initiating a full-court press every single time the issue comes up is WAY too easy for propaganda spewers to turn into "look how spoiled and immature they are" or something to that degree.

I figured the correct counter-actions would be WAY more covert and insidious.
 

Lucyfur

United forever in friendship and labour
Banned
I'm reluctant to believe anyone here actually gives a fuck about sports anyway, I could be wrong though. Most people who end up in either side of these types of arguments seem to either not even give two fucks about sports, have any knowledge and passion in it, and/or, just watch ESPN when the Super Bowl comes on annually, as an American tradition just to party.
I want to say that it isnt because I care or not about sports themselves personally, but that I care about trans individuals who wish to partake in sports being barred from doing such without any actual evidence to really support the claims and concerns aside from anecdotal events which one such had been reversed in retrospect.

It also goes into the bigger picture of Arkansas's BS bill they are bulling through to curb care for trans youth, primarily a big aid that has been statistically proven to be a great boon and has use, that they dont care about in the non trans cases, which is puberty blockers.
There is also the Texas bill that would classify providing gender affirming care to your child as abuse and would put parents who support their kids in Texas in jail as well as medical providers as well.

There are cases like this coming up all over the country from sports legislation to the home and medical realm and it is usually a step by step thing with "oh the sports" then into scare mongering about providing care and shit next.

It is sad and frustrating and it really is such an unfounded and ignorant push from people who either never looked into the matter and have no background knowledge in the matter or when they do they don't care that they are wrong and are pushing because of their own agenda and still blatantly lie to the public anyway.

This certain group has is and will likely continue to push for measures that enforce their own ideals and aim for trans erasure in society this even includes barbaric torture being proper by some of them as well known as conversion therapy. They don't care about the lives and health of those they impact in these measures as it is either conform and pretend to be cis or you may as well be dead with them.
 

Hi-FiWolf95

Metal Misanthrope
I want to say that it isnt because I care or not about sports themselves personally, but that I care about trans individuals who wish to partake in sports being barred from doing such without any actual evidence to really support the claims and concerns aside from anecdotal events which one such had been reversed in retrospect.

It also goes into the bigger picture of Arkansas's BS bill they are bulling through to curb care for trans youth, primarily a big aid that has been statistically proven to be a great boon and has use, that they dont care about in the non trans cases, which is puberty blockers.
There is also the Texas bill that would classify providing gender affirming care to your child as abuse and would put parents who support their kids in Texas in jail as well as medical providers as well.

There are cases like this coming up all over the country from sports legislation to the home and medical realm and it is usually a step by step thing with "oh the sports" then into scare mongering about providing care and shit next.

It is sad and frustrating and it really is such an unfounded and ignorant push from people who either never looked into the matter and have no background knowledge in the matter or when they do they don't care that they are wrong and are pushing because of their own agenda and still blatantly lie to the public anyway.

This certain group has is and will likely continue to push for measures that enforce their own ideals and aim for trans erasure in society this even includes barbaric torture being proper by some of them as well known as conversion therapy. They don't care about the lives and health of those they impact in these measures as it is either conform and pretend to be cis or you may as well be dead with them.
Time to draw the maps. Clearly, people with fundamental ideological differences cannot live under the same Democratic-Republic side by side. Some just don't want the influence from the trans and LGBT community, others wants to raise their kids a certain way, or have civilization think and work in a certain order without cultural and ideological clashes. Because I'm more conspiracy-minded, I see an even larger picture than what most people perceive in the world affecting their affiliated groups of people.
 

Jaredthefox92

Well-Known Member
Can't wait to see yet another quality General Discussion thread get Flamingo'd because some of y'all can't go ten seconds without hopping on your social issues/political soapboxes.

I'm blocking people who are trying to make this political. I don't want any of this political bs in my conversations any longer.
 

Lucyfur

United forever in friendship and labour
Banned
Can't wait to see yet another quality General Discussion thread get Flamingo'd because some of y'all can't go ten seconds without hopping on your social issues/political soapboxes.
Hey when people start putting through legislation the measures to erase you and those like yourself's existence I wonder how long you'll go without venting about it.

Like this isnt some spiel about political funding, but the actions towards a group of people that continues to happen and continues to get more aggressive.

Hey tbh I had gone a good while without saying anything because I was live and let live, but I will bring attention to and yell out about injustices and if people want to try to write them off or outright ignore it because they have no depth prose or empathy to the issue of the erasure of people living as themselves being pushed by a certain group in America then really that is quite sad for them and I hope they can find some empathy goo to feel something.
 

Firuthi Dragovic

Gamer Dragon, former speedrunner
I'm blocking people who are trying to make this political. I don't want any of this political bs in my conversations any longer.
......but all I was trying to do was follow up on old information. If I don't follow the old incidents to their conclusion they just build up until I melt down.


Speaking of following up: Lucy, there was one question up there I was asking about the "no marked advantage" bit that might've gotten buried.
 

TyraWadman

The Silent Observer
I'm reluctant to believe anyone here actually gives a fuck about sports anyway, I could be wrong though. Most people who end up in either side of these types of arguments seem to either not even give two fucks about sports, have any knowledge and passion in it, and/or, just watch ESPN when the Super Bowl comes on annually, as an American tradition just to party.

I think you're right to a degree! Most anyone I hear that watches things like Hockey, only seem to like watching it for the fights!
 

Jaredthefox92

Well-Known Member
......but all I was trying to do was follow up on old information. If I don't follow the old incidents to their conclusion they just build up until I melt down.


Speaking of following up: Lucy, there was one question up there I was asking about the "no marked advantage" bit that might've gotten buried.

What are you even talking about?
 
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