Frank Gulotta
Send us your floppy
You have to be a fool if you believe for a second that women have not always had huge social power
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Baron Tredegar
Master of Forgotten Lore
I like how you mentioned me and proceeded to not address any of my points.
Please tell us why a culture that says its okay to rape your wife doesnt need to be reformed?
Frank Gulotta
Send us your floppy
Are you talking about the quran or something? it's the only thing I can think of besides some fringe cults that explicitly state that rape is okay
Baron Tredegar
Master of Forgotten Lore
Fundamentalist Christianity. Specifically where they say that a woman should be completely submissive to a man and that his desires are the only thing that matters.
The Consent Workshop | How Purity Culture Enables Rape Culture
How Purity Culture Enables Rape Culture | The Consent Workshop blog provides a safe space to to desconstruct rape culture through necessary conversations
theconsentworkshop.com
If you are religious you should thank God this movement hasnt made its way over to your country too much.
Firuthi Dragovic
World Serpent, overly defensive
THAT is patriarchy? When two of the three "women" activities (cooking and cleaning) actually give a massive amount of room for her to attain power in the relationship?
There's a hell of a lot more to untangle about this.
Baron Tredegar
Master of Forgotten Lore
It is pretty complicated. Women are told to be completely submissive to a man and obey his every command, it results in something very similar to a master and slave relationship with physical abuse being extremely common if the man doesnt think the woman is doing her job.
Frank Gulotta
Send us your floppy
So it's fundamentalist Christianity (and maybe conservative islam) you have a problem with then? that's not exactly the impression you initially conveyed if I'm not mistakenFundamentalist Christianity. Specifically where they say that a woman should be completely submissive to a man and that his desires are the only thing that matters.
The Consent Workshop | How Purity Culture Enables Rape Culture
How Purity Culture Enables Rape Culture | The Consent Workshop blog provides a safe space to to desconstruct rape culture through necessary conversations
If you are religious you should thank God this movement hasnt made its way over to your country too much.
Baron Tredegar
Master of Forgotten Lore
The problem is that fundamentalist christianity is so engrained in American culture, especially in certain regions, where even if you arent that religious it still permeates the social norms.
The_Happiest_Husky
Add me Sugar Cookie#0398
Not really wanting to start an argument but can we really call it fundamentalist if it's not accurate? Fundamentalist means it's the most literal interpretation of the scripture. Whether you like Christianity or not, the people who claim the bible gives them justification for that kind of thing don't know what they're talking about. I may not know much about the old testament, but the new testament is where the rules for Christians reside and there's constant lines about treating others kindly and with respect, including ones that specifically reference married relationships
Frank Gulotta
Send us your floppy
I have definitely noticed the US is more religious but what I've never ever seen or heard (and I've consumed tons of US media, not only exported series and cartoons but everything else including pieces of news), is anyone saying or implying in any way shape or form that rape is okay, again excluding extremely fringe sects that everybody hates and more often than not I encountered them in crime shows. In fact then I hear what passes as promoting that rape culture, and frankly everybody who's not had a prerequisite indoctrination raises eyebrows because it mostly just makes no sense. Maybe there's something else I'm missing.
Parabellum3
I'm not a furry if I have feathers.
Me whenever I see the word Taken on a girl's profile:
I hope the two toxic men in this thread get some therapy, a loving partner, and a little bit of empathy.
Ironically… the two guys screeching in this thread about how woman are actually the toxic ones and were never oppressed are the perfect embodiment of toxic masculinity.
Classic “weak men” argument with pictures of transgender individuals and media taken out of context. Very telling of the character of the individuals here.
To those who are interested in learning and not being whiny soyboys who can’t handle addressing systemic issues:
Toxic masculinity does not imply that only men can be toxic. It does not imply that masculinity itself is toxic. It implies that some social expectations placed on men disproportionately lead to mental health issues in men which in turn leads to suicide, violence, and social isolation.
Ironically… the two guys screeching in this thread about how woman are actually the toxic ones and were never oppressed are the perfect embodiment of toxic masculinity.
Classic “weak men” argument with pictures of transgender individuals and media taken out of context. Very telling of the character of the individuals here.
To those who are interested in learning and not being whiny soyboys who can’t handle addressing systemic issues:
Toxic masculinity does not imply that only men can be toxic. It does not imply that masculinity itself is toxic. It implies that some social expectations placed on men disproportionately lead to mental health issues in men which in turn leads to suicide, violence, and social isolation.
>Can't address said people directly due to having no reasonable intelligent counter argument
>Insert Ad hominem to claim moral superiority
Many such cases.
RamblingRenegade
Just a Horse Trying to Avoid Life's Manure
I wanted to say I have popcorn if anyone's interested a couple of times..lol
No, I just don’t care to re-hash this argument for the six hundredth time with some hateful people in this thread. Go through my post history if you want coherent counter-arguments. Further, this isn’t a debate forum. I’m not here to clog up this thread. DM me if you want to have an intellectual discussion.
And my “ad-hominem” was accurate. It’s pretty ridiculous to whine over people wanting to bring men up under more loving conditions to give them a greater chance at intimacy and social success. If you honestly want to spend your day arguing against people who simply want to make men’s lives better — maybe it’s time to think about where your priorities lie.
Have a nice day, Ramjet.
Regret
Insert Witticism Here
Speaking of toxic:
This is probably not the best approach of keeping things civil.
Firuthi Dragovic
World Serpent, overly defensive
This fell out of civility a long time ago, sadly.
It's the kind of conversation where "civility" is automatically a silencer.
Ramjet?
The ones doing the mass experiment at the national level turned out to be the toxic types who should have never been allowed near the philosophy.
The ones who actually understand the concept and how debilitating it is - and who could actually find a way to put it as one of the causes of the higher costs and why politicians have been allowed to run roughshod over freedoms - can't get a word in edgewise because of the people at the top.
Reform movements are terrifyingly easy for a narcissist to hijack.
Regret
Insert Witticism Here
Oh I am aware, I just find it disappointing when people fall to a lower level and add more gasoline to an already burning trash fire instead of disengaging.
Truthfully, after lurking here for a long enough time I get the distinct feeling that a good portion of this forum absolutely loathes the other half. It is honestly quite sad to watch.
Truthfully, after the horrific shit half this forum has engaged in… they should’ve stayed banned. And the fact that there’s been zero transparency of what some users here have engaged in is incredibly depressing. But hey… bad deeds often go unpunished.
Apologies if I came off uncivil. Just very telling the types of people in this thread when improving society for people causes them to break down and start crying. It’s pretty embarrassing to be adult men and acting like edgy sixteen year old children over a nuanced topic. That’s all.
Baron Tredegar
Master of Forgotten Lore
Sadly most of these people like to ignore the Gospels and use a lot of Old Testament stuff to back their stuff up. Honestly a major reform movement based on the Gospels alone might fix a lot of issues.
Proper sex education isnt really taught in my region, as a result most people here think these attitudes are perfectly normal. A lot of times people will use terms like "traditional values" when in reality they basically want to set up their own version of Sharia law based off of Leviticus and the Old Testament. Luckily a lot of laws make stuff they want illegal but that doesnt stop them from trying to change the laws, a couple months ago in Tennessee they tried to pass a law that would make homosexuality illegal and make child marriage legal.
So basically issues like toxic masculinity vary differently compared on what region you live in whether it is in the American South, Taliban controlled Afghanistan, or Europe and using a broad label to describe everything doesnt work when talking internationally.
D
Deleted member 127940
Guest
Coming out of my self-induced hibernation to let the usual folks know a few things about this whole "What is wrong with the dudes?" thing:
1) If you look at any of the shit that's posted in the Manosphere/RP media scene, literally 80% of the material is about how to get monies, how to get the girlies , and how to achieve self-actualization in an increasingly complex world where the rules and expectations are not only as clear-cut as they once were before but in many ways contradict themselves entirely. The emotional stuff? Not a priority. I'm sorry but it just isn't. Yes, men have emotional needs too (some of you know I have my own problems in this arena based off of what I've posted here in the past), but some of you have to understand that men and women are not the same when it comes to how they process emotions and they are not equal in their emotional needs. If you don't like that, too bad. Accept it or cope harder.
2) Men who don't have a stake in a country have no reason to prioritize the welfare of said country. What is the stake I'm referring to? Wives, kids, and property. Not a lot of that going around nowadays if you haven't noticed. This is a painful lesson this species has repeatedly failed to learn throughout recorded history (and you all are in the process of failing to learn it again for the umpteenth in a row lmao). Continued economical and technological growth (these two actually go hand-in-hand) and the continued maintenance of an advanced society requires the median man to produce at an excess level because he can operate at just 50% of his capacity, on his lonesome, and still produce enough raw economic output to feed himself, house himself, protect himself, and even save some scratch on the side to save or invest. Society literally needs tons of dudes producing at an excess rate to pay for everyone else and to hold down the jobs that society needs done to function, but why would such a man work 60 hours a week in an office or in some shit-tier blue collar job when he can just work 35 hours a week and still have a solid life?
Oh, and another thing about these "50% Guys" though? Particularly if they're involved in the Manosphere/Red Pill scene? They horde resources for themselves (ammunition, food, supplies, money, land, etc), share little with others who are outside of their immediate trust circles, and increasingly approach society with not only apathy but downright contempt. "Let it burn" has become a religious mantra for this crowd. If I had to summarize this lot with one word, it would be "selfish". If something huge goes down (say, a foreign nation decides to invade), these guys are not coming to help anyone unless they're a close family member, a trusted significant other, or a very close friend. This is the one unifying mindset attribute that these guys all share regardless of their racial backgrounds, political leanings, occupations, etc.
3) If a bunch of guys would rather follow a drug addict who scarfs down nothing but meat and a turboshitter like Andrew Tate, that means your message is either unattractive to them or they know on an intuitive level that you all are full of shit.
Here's an idea: actually figure out what these guys want instead of acting like you know what is best for them.
Because if it isn't about getting money or getting girls or getting actualized, they're largely not going to care.
Anyway, back to business. I have to go buy overpriced groceries and pray that China doesn't nuke the global semiconductor industry (and by extension, the global economy) by rolling Taiwan.
Cya y'all in another month when this same tired ass topic creeps back up.
1) If you look at any of the shit that's posted in the Manosphere/RP media scene, literally 80% of the material is about how to get monies, how to get the girlies , and how to achieve self-actualization in an increasingly complex world where the rules and expectations are not only as clear-cut as they once were before but in many ways contradict themselves entirely. The emotional stuff? Not a priority. I'm sorry but it just isn't. Yes, men have emotional needs too (some of you know I have my own problems in this arena based off of what I've posted here in the past), but some of you have to understand that men and women are not the same when it comes to how they process emotions and they are not equal in their emotional needs. If you don't like that, too bad. Accept it or cope harder.
2) Men who don't have a stake in a country have no reason to prioritize the welfare of said country. What is the stake I'm referring to? Wives, kids, and property. Not a lot of that going around nowadays if you haven't noticed. This is a painful lesson this species has repeatedly failed to learn throughout recorded history (and you all are in the process of failing to learn it again for the umpteenth in a row lmao). Continued economical and technological growth (these two actually go hand-in-hand) and the continued maintenance of an advanced society requires the median man to produce at an excess level because he can operate at just 50% of his capacity, on his lonesome, and still produce enough raw economic output to feed himself, house himself, protect himself, and even save some scratch on the side to save or invest. Society literally needs tons of dudes producing at an excess rate to pay for everyone else and to hold down the jobs that society needs done to function, but why would such a man work 60 hours a week in an office or in some shit-tier blue collar job when he can just work 35 hours a week and still have a solid life?
Oh, and another thing about these "50% Guys" though? Particularly if they're involved in the Manosphere/Red Pill scene? They horde resources for themselves (ammunition, food, supplies, money, land, etc), share little with others who are outside of their immediate trust circles, and increasingly approach society with not only apathy but downright contempt. "Let it burn" has become a religious mantra for this crowd. If I had to summarize this lot with one word, it would be "selfish". If something huge goes down (say, a foreign nation decides to invade), these guys are not coming to help anyone unless they're a close family member, a trusted significant other, or a very close friend. This is the one unifying mindset attribute that these guys all share regardless of their racial backgrounds, political leanings, occupations, etc.
3) If a bunch of guys would rather follow a drug addict who scarfs down nothing but meat and a turboshitter like Andrew Tate, that means your message is either unattractive to them or they know on an intuitive level that you all are full of shit.
Here's an idea: actually figure out what these guys want instead of acting like you know what is best for them.
Because if it isn't about getting money or getting girls or getting actualized, they're largely not going to care.
Anyway, back to business. I have to go buy overpriced groceries and pray that China doesn't nuke the global semiconductor industry (and by extension, the global economy) by rolling Taiwan.
Cya y'all in another month when this same tired ass topic creeps back up.
Minerva_Minx
Explosion loving skooma cat
Turbid_Cyno
*Transmission Lost*
Sigh. Really?
“A human being should be able to change a diaper, plan an invasion, butcher a hog, conn a ship, design a building, write a sonnet, balance accounts, build a wall, set a bone, comfort the dying, take orders, give orders, cooperate, act alone, solve equations, analyze a new problem, pitch manure, program a computer, cook a tasty meal, fight efficiently, die gallantly.
Specialization is for insects.”
-Heinlein
Too much to ask to be capable of empathy and toughness? They're not mutually exclusive you know.
“A human being should be able to change a diaper, plan an invasion, butcher a hog, conn a ship, design a building, write a sonnet, balance accounts, build a wall, set a bone, comfort the dying, take orders, give orders, cooperate, act alone, solve equations, analyze a new problem, pitch manure, program a computer, cook a tasty meal, fight efficiently, die gallantly.
Specialization is for insects.”
-Heinlein
Too much to ask to be capable of empathy and toughness? They're not mutually exclusive you know.
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Frank Gulotta
Send us your floppy
Holy gaslighting batman. No that's the mirror you're staring into, I merely put you in front of a few key hypocrisies/inconsistencies of your positions, possibly blind points as well, and this is the best you can come up with, this is you :