Likely not but its good for keeping people distracted.
What is Terragen (and why it should be allowed in FA)
- Thread starter SammyFox
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anonymousfurry
Underkitten's Here!
Unfortunately I think your right.
I didn't know that was the point.
Distracted from what?
:-?
Oh just because the site isn't working so more people patrolling. I happened across this because of the site crash I have to say it kept me distracted from the site being down for awhile and even though there are some not so nice parts wasn't that bad of a read.
anonymousfurry
Underkitten's Here!
Oh, yeah... Well it was started before then.
I dont know about site discussions falling into the entertainment category, I hope your not reading a place for humor here as justification for Sammy's concern and the decisions of the staff not to be taken seriously.
You do know there are threads meant for entertainment here on the forums site, very much void of the "not so nice parts", don't you?
I wasn't reading it for the entertainment value please do not get me wrong (I am also fighting off sleep so I may not be saying things how I mean too) I never said this was humorous I was intrigued by what Terragen exactly was and how it worked and Sammy presented it well. I noticed that there was several pages of discussion and I happen to be a curious sort and I wanted to see what had come of his explanation. In no way do I find this a hilarious discussion I find it entertaining because it is constructed by many intelligent words and I find that to be a rarity on forums and it was entertaining because it actually made my mind think. It was not a "Oh lawl lets see these people fight! I put 2 dollars on this one!" it was purely my interest got perked and I got sucked in and really couldn't turn away. I enjoy debates and discussions especially when there are people in it showing that they are intellectuals.
Also I know it started before then hince why I said I don't know all thats gone on.
Seriously do not think I am reading this purely for the fact it distracts me from other things -granted thats how I came to this forum- my true intentions know are to purely add my thoughts on how it was going and the fact that I really am interested in seeing what happens in the end.
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anonymousfurry
Underkitten's Here!
I didnt mean that to sound accusatory either. What you said only rang slightly of someone saying they where here for lulz, and very slightly at that, I might add. More than that, I was thinking that the humor break started by the otherwise very witty and wise Ebon Lupus (who probably also popped in because the main site is down) could have been seen by some as turning this all into a joke. I don't think he would want to see it move in that direction, and by going along with him, I wasn't trying to establish that kind of precedent either. So I wasn't pointing a finger at you and saying WOH!!! What ya trying to prove here, just simply trying to clear things up and make sure we where still as much on track as we can be, while it seems we keep teetering on the brink of the thread being derailed, and still be pleasant hearted about it.
Yeah, me too.
I know... Although the tarragon thing... Well anyways.
I don't think he was trying to do this, but I think he would kick tail at doing tutorials. I mean, WAH!
Stating his case as to why TGen renders should be allowed on FA...
Not so WAH! ;-)
I didn't mean to make it sound like your opinion doesn't matter, because it does... And I realize that the lions share of what goes on between Sammy Fox and the Staff here, goes on without most other users being aware of it, not on his part though, but on the staffs part... it's supposed to be that way.
Sammy is one of the harder ones to like, never the less, some of us just cant help liking him, and wish he wouldn't be such a hard pill to swallow. Its okay for him to be a hard pill to swallow, that's part of what gives him so much character, but not such a hard pill to swallow, that he's so frequently moderated and to justify the staff to have their fingers on standby so often to ban his bottom, especially when he goes on the war path over something like this, and calls out the hounds. Its just really, sooooooooo futile and unnecessary.
Understood ;-)
Cool :3 (Hope I didn't accidentally make an arse of myself.)
Now I shall watch this forum to see what comes of this.
Lt_Havoc
SPADS Commander
Ya know, then you guys could also ban every other 3D application that usese pre render stuff, like poser, because you can get a ton of models for those programs from various sites and can throw together your own stuff without much work. Dont see a problem why pics that are done with a highly pseicalized redering tool are forbidden. Its not like you make one click and you are done, most landscapes are modled anyway.
The only other program that can do such things would be 3DSMax, but only in the 5000 Euros worth full version of it, that or you have Hammer and make such stuff with the source engine. Dont see an argument here for banning it.
The only other program that can do such things would be 3DSMax, but only in the 5000 Euros worth full version of it, that or you have Hammer and make such stuff with the source engine. Dont see an argument here for banning it.
anonymousfurry
Underkitten's Here!
According to me, you didn't get anywhere close to accidentally making an arse of yourself.
I hope I didn't either.
I'm sorta thinkin Dragoneer aint gonna be inspired enough to VETO the other staff on this one.
I honestly didn't even know Dragoneer would offer a chance for someone to convince him to VETO a staff decision, especially since i was told by one of the key admins handling this topic, that Dragoneer was in on the discussion that came to the conclusion that TGen renders (bla bla... you already heard it) where generator content and thereby no longer allowed on the site.
I guess Sammy was thinking that the FA staff cant make an informed decision on an application because they don't know how its used, but as far as I see it, the decision changed once they where informed of how it's used and what it is.
Doesn't, "What is Terragen...", imply that the OP (Sammy) doesn't think the people who he is talking to (Dragoneer and the FA staff) know?
As far as the other part... "...and why it should be allowed in FA", the only thing we're working on on his side of the argument is pretty much simply because he wants it to be, and ummm... something about it being the only way for him to artistically express himself, and... and... not allowing it would mean he would loose his "furry" home.
?!?!
Then people jumped in with the TGEN IS ART D*MN IT thing, which isnt the point here, and it started going down hill from there.
Some people consider pr0nographic pictures of human yiffy bits art too... in fact, lots of people do... The "ITS ART D*MN IT" argument seems to be big with a lot of people, but its odd how they think it can be used to to deem uploading it (or anything else that can be called art) to FA as their constitutional / God given right.
It may also need to be mentioned that I know the FA staff knew this decision would set off sparks with some people... Perhaps, that considered, Dragoneer was just allowing a buffer when letting Sammy state his case, but I doubt seriously that he meant to open the door for this to happen, although part of me thinks he knew it, that would be why I wished from the start that Sammy could be civil about the matter.
He's not been banned from the forum site... last I checked.
And...
I don't know if the issue is really as up in the air as it may sound to some.
But, we'll see.
Nah you didn't make an arse of yourself. I Did get slightly defensive at some of the things you said but I understood why you said them so no harm no foul :3
I completely agree.
There are differing degrees of "Art" and the fact is some degrees of "Art" are not considered art by many. Its very much in the eye of the beholder. From what I can tell of their Decision is that is was so then those who put a ton of effort creating things from scratch doing the math of "If I have them do this then this is where the arm will be." or "If the hill is this tall and the sun is here then this is where the shadow will be and how tall/long the shadow is.". Fact of the matter is if it was deemed to not be art for how FA is then for FA it is not considered art even if people in there believe that it is, whilst other places may accept it.
Also there is nothing that says you cannot have an FA account along with other art site accounts.
I completely agree.
There are differing degrees of "Art" and the fact is some degrees of "Art" are not considered art by many. Its very much in the eye of the beholder. From what I can tell of their Decision is that is was so then those who put a ton of effort creating things from scratch doing the math of "If I have them do this then this is where the arm will be." or "If the hill is this tall and the sun is here then this is where the shadow will be and how tall/long the shadow is.". Fact of the matter is if it was deemed to not be art for how FA is then for FA it is not considered art even if people in there believe that it is, whilst other places may accept it.
Also there is nothing that says you cannot have an FA account along with other art site accounts.
You're right. Going overboard might get too fishy. And yeah, it's great in tuna casserole.
Thank you for the condolences.
anonymousfurry
Underkitten's Here!
Odd you should mention that... Poser renders, that are just a bunch of non user created models, also fall outside the scope of FA's AUP. This pertains to the scenerio as you mentioned it, for any application be it POSER, SL, MAX, MAYA, POV, TRUESPACE, Bryce, or any other number of 3D modelers and render tools.
As I understand it no one said that using highly specialized rendering tools where forbidden, in fact, its specifically mentioned more than once that they aren't, and specifically what is.
I think if you really look into the matter, you'll see that only one side is really generalizing the issue.
Umm... Max isnt the only program that does "such things". (See aforementioned, especially the "...any other number of 3D modelers and render tools", part.)
Umm, right now... (it didnt take much effort to figure this out) Max v9 - new - goes for $3,519.11 on amazon, and you can get it legitimately - used - on Ebay or Amazon, for around $400. Naturally if you want to save more money, you could look for lower versions. Thats one of the glories about software. The good stuff doesn't become drastically less useful just because its older... Most of the freeware version of TGen is like a decade old. Yes... people have been squeeing ZOMG were did you take that picture!?!? at TGen renders since before I started playing with it, way back in 99. Back then I got kicks because I made some other kids think that I took a picture of the surface of mars through my high power telescope, and even got raised eyebrows from some teachers. Software dosnt have to be the newest most expensive version or even commercially released, in order to achieve amazing results. And, 3D modeling applications and rendering programs (sometimes they are entirely separate things, but often times they are combined to one degree or the other) arnt so specialized that there are only two applications out there to use if you want to model and render a landscape.
Yeah, no kidding eh... who does that any more!?!?
LOL
Banning what?
Nothing's been banned yet, that I know of... except for Sammy.
Ummm, Sammy deleted his own terragen renders while this was being discussed... I guess he was trying to spoof the old BAWWWWWW I'M LEAVING 4 EVER thing that he and his kind enjoy laughing at. When he "came back", I guess he thought the joke was on him, but its not, its simply just a matter of the AUP never allowing generator content "in and of itself, or as the main theme of a submission" to be hosted on FA.
My terragen renders where not even "banned". I was told two weeks ago that they where allowed, and I was asked nicely to take them down, once it was decided that they didn't belong here anymore, I gladly complied... and Sammy... well this is were Sammy took it.
And just to make sure you understand how I see it... Using specialized or advanced, or not so specialized or advanced 3D applications isn't what is not being allowed on FA, generator content, in and of itself, or as the main theme of a submission is, because it almost blatantly contradicts the FA's policy requiring content to be user created or created for the user, in order to have a place on FA.
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anonymousfurry
Underkitten's Here!
;-)
Hmmm... Well I don't think FA staff made the decision because they don't think its art. Thats not really the issue here, although one of the staff and Sammy & Company sorta made it sound that way.
The issue here is more simply that its a matter of Terragen being a "generator", which means that 99%, if not more of the work done in creating what you see in a TGen render, is done without any effort on the part of the person using the computer, even if they utilize the sculpting feature, overlay the terrain with textures they created themselves, or no matter how long they spend toggling settings for the color and level of the water in the scene, or where the sun is.
Like I mentioned before... When I've used Terragen to render a scene, no part of the experience makes me think that the computer output is an artistic result that I made. I can spend a minute on it, or an hour or two... then I click a button, and go play on SL and/or browse FA. For me, to say that what the computer does after I tell it what to do and the end result is my art, would be like (and I think this has been mentioned before) me telling someone else that I want them to paint me a landscape, and I want the sun rays to spray from the clouds just so... I want the reflections on the water to be just like that... I want the overall color of the scene to be mostly like this... and so forth and so on... and as they work on it, I run off and fiddle faddle on SL, go shopping, sleep, yiff, f*p to FA, eat, or whatever, they call me up when their done with it, show it to me, and I name it and get to say that I created it.
Isn't that sort of unfair?
Which leads me to what you said...
I think as far as the part you mention, as FA offering more support for the person who actually puts artistic efforts into creating what they do, is the foundation of the reason the "by you / for you" clause is the cornerstone of FA's acceptable use/upload and terms of service policy.
So yeah... that all makes sense to me.
Nope, there isnt. ;-)
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anonymousfurry
Underkitten's Here!
Fish smells like fish.
For a little kitten full of p*ss and vinegar, needing energy so he can be full of, umm, other things, that sounds way YUMMY!!!
Hey!?!? What's a wolf doing knowing that Tuna Casserole tastes good!?!? ;-)
From the deepest parts of my heart and soul, your most certainly welcome.
Perhaps they were feeding a feline they wanted to eat and so shared a meal with the feline to get the feline to be... Meatier?
How is this any different to techno music made in FL Studio, which is allowed on FA?
I think that instead of focusing on the "generator" aspect, that it should be determined on how much control the user has for originality. Some things I can understand not being allowed, but I think the weight of this argument should be on the degree of originality.
d.m.f.
I think that instead of focusing on the "generator" aspect, that it should be determined on how much control the user has for originality. Some things I can understand not being allowed, but I think the weight of this argument should be on the degree of originality.
d.m.f.
CHICAGO¤lollie
Fff
Stop.
Download Terragen.
Use it.
Give us a report on the amount of effort you had to put in to create something in it.
There is VERY MINIMAL effort required. The most you've got in terms of modeling is raising and lowering parts of land. But honestly, that is it. There's no vertices to move into place, and you're not working with NURBS. It's simply click to make this section higher or lower.
Also, from memory, renders with Poser are actually also not allowed on FA either, unless the models were created by yourself.
3DSMax is not a generator. There's a shittonne of things in it that require actual learning and patience to be able to create something half decent. You can't just tell it to make a head and let it do the rest, no. You get a cube, and you cut that cube in a billion ways and mold every vertex into shape until it resembles a face.
...y
you.
In no way am I going to defend techno music. Personally, it is a genre that I cannot stand, and a label that I loathe. On the same note, I do not like FruityLoops. BUT, FruityLoops is not music-generating software. Each note is entered by the user, and everything is hand-sequenced. Chances are, what you're hearing out of it is purely just unoriginality, and a lot of it.
FruityLoops has no place in this thread. Try Apple Garageband. It's not quite there either, but with its vast collection of stock loops, it's a hell of a lot closer.
Stratelier
Well-Known Member
(Ack, to think that this thread was only on page five when I hit the hay . . . and I only got 3-4 hours of sleep, too.)
CHICAGO¤lollie
Fff
We've tried a shovel, but this puppy just won't die!
anonymousfurry
Underkitten's Here!
Your welcome, even though I think to some I could have made it less unclear. ;-)
Shoulda, coulda, woulda... matters not to me. First of all its a discussion forum, if your being civil you shouldn't have to choose your words so carefully that you feel like your walking on thin ice that could crash through at any moment, or broken glass that makes the effort so excruciating that its painful to contribute a part to it.
Second of all, I greatly appreciate your contribution to the discussion so far.
And third of all, it does sound better when put as "Acceptable Art" instead of saying whether or not it is art.
In fact, that could probably be said in order to sum things up as peacefully as possible.
TGen renders, in and of themselves, or as the main theme of a submission, fall under the generator content clauses of the AUP, and thereby are not Acceptable Art to be hosted on FA.
Hmmmm.... I wonder how that would sit with Sammy?
Me too.
anonymousfurry
Underkitten's Here!
Trying to get your word in as the last one, is hardly hammering at a puppy with a shovel, in attempts to get it to die.
Likewise, pouring fuel on the fire while screaming, GO OUT D*MN IT / I DONT LIKE YOU, is hardly trying to cool it down.
Is it?
If its a violation of some policy that I missed to keep up the conversation here within the context of where its legitimately gone... (Discussions can still be legitimate to the original reason the thread was opened, even if they go off a little bit.) ... Without anyone trying to derail it or spam it, lets say with... "ZOMG EWWW I DONT LIKE YOU PEOPLE TALKING, S T O P ! ! !, with or without pictorial anti drama statements or "IN BEFORE CLOSER"... Like I mentioned before, report it, or just kindly ask staff why the thread hasn't been closed yet.
What purpose does it serve this discussion to BAWWWW about this being an ongoing conversation? Is someone forcing you to contribute against your will?
Help some of us out, cause it doesn't really make sense to me, that is of course if you can do it without derailing the thread.
anonymousfurry
Underkitten's Here!
Ya know Flo on the Progressive commercials?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Wtkc7W1kNUM
:-o SURPRISE!!! :-o
Yes?
Hello, FruityLoops is so named because of, guess what- It uses LOOPS! And it has as much relevance based on what constitutes a "generator", and how much user-level creativity is involved- REGARDLESS of whether or not you like the genre. That part is irrelevant.
d.m.f.
(who prefers abstract ambient and classic rock & roll....but that's irrelevant, too.)
CHICAGO¤lollie
Fff
...yeah, see, I don't mean to knock you down, but I don't think you quite get why Terragen is being hounded on. I'm also led to believe that you've never actually used FruityLoops before, or even looked into what it can and cannot do.
Terragen takes a couple of sliders, some pre-programmed randomization, and a generate button to create imagery. Little to no effort is required.
FruityLoops doesn't have any randomization capabilities for automatically generating a song. Even at a minimum, some effort is required.
Pft, no. Silly anonymousfurry, I'm just somewhat surprised that this thread hasn't been closed off yet. Everything that needs to be said HAS been said, and- Really, not a whole lot needed to be said in the first place.
I'll be perfectly honest. I've been sitting around hoping that there's a mod out there looking over this thread, thinking "Golly, this thread sure should be closed off." But, that hasn't happened yet, so y'know what? You're right. Less hoping, more acting!
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