• Fur Affinity Forums are governed by Fur Affinity's Rules and Policies. Links and additional information can be accessed in the Site Information Forum.

What is your faith/doctrine/religion (if any?)

Rochat

Stay pawsitive.
image.jpg

-Epicurus
EDIT: I'm sorry, I done goofed.
lol, very funny. I like the quote, but ok - there can exist both a God and bad actors. I get that. I think if God does exist, he or she will excuse my ignorance and judge me based on what I did for those around me - I think, I could be and am often wrong. I hope they wouldn't judge me based on arbitrary rituals or my incredulity that something so wonderful (heaven) exists.
 

defunct

Well-Known Member
lol, very funny. I like the quote, but ok - there can exist both a God and bad actors. I get that. I think if God does exist, he or she will excuse my ignorance and judge me based on what I did for those around me - I think, I could be and am often wrong. I hope they wouldn't judge me based on arbitrary rituals or my incredulity that something so wonderful (heaven) exists.
I strongly believe that God's judgement of character is based on how closely a person has followed in the footsteps of Jesus, regardless of whether or not they did so specifically because of Jesus. TL;DR just love everyone as well as you can it's not the easiest thing in the world but it's no arbitrary concept either
 

ResolutionBlaze

Angry Local
Banned
EDIT: I'm sorry, I done goofed.
lol, very funny. I like the quote, but ok - there can exist both a God and bad actors. I get that. I think if God does exist, he or she will excuse my ignorance and judge me based on what I did for those around me - I think, I could be and am often wrong. I hope they wouldn't judge me based on arbitrary rituals or my incredulity that something so wonderful (heaven) exists.

That's gonna be difficult, because in reality the average person is moderately evil. Quite a ways away from pure evil but that's still not a ground to start suggesting you've already earned your ticket to Heaven.

We like to think of ourselves as the hero of our own story, the individual saviors of the world. But we can't even keep our bedroom clean on a daily basis. We can't even sort our own families together. We can't even look within ourselves to see the monsters we are capable of being.

Read "Ordinary Men" sometime. It shows just how evil normal men are capable of being.
 
B

BahgDaddy

Guest
That's gonna be difficult, because in reality the average person is moderately evil. Quite a ways away from pure evil but that's still not a ground to start suggesting you've already earned your ticket to Heaven.

We like to think of ourselves as the hero of our own story, the individual saviors of the world. But we can't even keep our bedroom clean on a daily basis. We can't even sort our own families together. We can't even look within ourselves to see the monsters we are capable of being.

Read "Ordinary Men" sometime. It shows just how evil normal men are capable of being.

I do not believe we are moderately evil. What is evil, even?

I don't believe in good or evil, they're black and white ways of seeing the world that miss the many nuances about why people behave the way they do. There is a very simple metric upon which all actions should be placed - do no harm. It follows that one should try to do as little harm as possible, since absolutely no harm isn't possible, but it the goal to which to aspire.

People always do what they do for a reason, unless they are completely irrational. We can blame brain chemistry sometimes, but most people retain enough control over their faculties to continue making wise decisions. Or at least, what they believe are wise decisions. We should always be in a state of continuous self examination to figure out what our goals and expectations are. That way we make sure we are acting in accordance with our intrinsic ethics and behaving logically, rationally, and doing things which benefit the world, which ultimately means we're good.
 

DarkoKavinsky

ʎʇʇɐq ʇıq ɐ

ResolutionBlaze

Angry Local
Banned
I do not believe we are moderately evil. What is evil, even?

I don't believe in good or evil, they're black and white ways of seeing the world that miss the many nuances about why people behave the way they do. There is a very simple metric upon which all actions should be placed - do no harm. It follows that one should try to do as little harm as possible, since absolutely no harm isn't possible, but it the goal to which to aspire.

People always do what they do for a reason, unless they are completely irrational. We can blame brain chemistry sometimes, but most people retain enough control over their faculties to continue making wise decisions. Or at least, what they believe are wise decisions. We should always be in a state of continuous self examination to figure out what our goals and expectations are. That way we make sure we are acting in accordance with our intrinsic ethics and behaving logically, rationally, and doing things which benefit the world, which ultimately means we're good.

What is evil? How about evil is dragging a pregnant woman out in the middle of an empty field and shooting her in the back of the head. Courtesy of "Ordinary Men".

How about evil is Unit 731. Or Auschwitz. Or the Soviet Gulag.

If you wanna see Unit 731 you can look it up.

But I wouldn't suggest you do, it makes Auschwitz look like a cake walk: Unit 731 - Wikipedia

How about evil is rounding up the resentful people in your community, convincing them to overthrow the successful farmers that held anything up in society simply because they happened to have more, rape them, then ship them off to Siberia to freeze to death, resulting in the starvation of 6,000,000 Ukrainians during the Soviet era due to a lack of competent farmers?

How about a killer watching two unarmed policemen begging for their lives while the man simply shoots them both in the head.

You may see these as extreme examples. Perhaps. But so quick we are to detach ourselves from things like Nazis or experiment camps. The truth is, the Nazis were human, and you happen to be a human.


See, I think you're confusing moral greys with moral subjectivity. Ironically, people who aren't moral objectivists tend to make morality seem more stagnant and unchanging than it really is in their arguments, as though moral objectivists believe that something is wrong all the time no matter what. I haven't heard a single moral objectivist make the claim that morals are always always always consistent and stagnant and unchanging. It's a strawman; good and evil are black and white but that doesn't mean they are stagnant, or aren't circumstantial. Just because good and evil exist doesn't mean good and evil aren't dependent on circumstance. Idk where anyone gets that idea from, and they confuse it with subjectivity.

"You can doubt whether or not good exists. But once I'm done telling you about the things I know about human history there won't be a single person in this room who thinks that evil doesn't exist." - JP
 
Last edited:
B

BahgDaddy

Guest
What is evil? How about evil is dragging a pregnant woman out in the middle of an empty field and shooting her in the back of the head. Courtesy of "Ordinary Men".

How about evil is Unit 731. Or Auschwitz. Or the Soviet Gulag.

How about evil is rounding up the resentful people in your community, convincing them to overthrow the successful farmers that held anything up in society simply because they happened to have more, rape them, then ship them off to Siberia to freeze to death, resulting in the starvation of 6,000,000 Ukrainians during the Soviet era due to a lack of competent farmers?

How about a killer watching two unarmed policemen begging for their lives while the man simply shoots them both in the head.

You may see these as extreme examples. Perhaps. But so quick we are to detach ourselves from things like Nazis or experiment camps. The truth is, the Nazis were human, and you happen to be a human.


See, I think you're confusing moral greys with moral subjectivity. Ironically, people who aren't moral objectivists tend to make morality seem more stagnant and unchanging than it really is in their arguments, as though moral objectivists believe that something is wrong all the time no matter what. I haven't heard a single moral objectivist make the claim that morals are always always always consistent and stagnant and unchanging. It's a strawman; good and evil are black and white but that doesn't mean they are stagnant, or aren't circumstantial. Just because good and evil exist doesn't mean good and evil aren't dependent on circumstance. Idk where anyone gets that idea from, and they confuse it with subjectivity.

I am neither an objectivist nor a relativist, which I think might be what you mean by subjectivist. If not correct me.

And yes, you did pull extreme examples that most of us can readily call evil. And it's quite appalling that these people so willingly committed so many crimes, or did they? Lots of things become seemingly rational if people are threatening to kill you if you don't do x, y and z, and those people are also afraid of punishment, all the way to the top to Hitler.

Of course by now we haven't even had a real philosophical discussion and we've already both invoked Hitler, which basically means ammunition [sic] is a tad low.

What about other acts? I think a corporation that raises the price of epipens 609% overnight is evil. Except, I won't use that moralist word, and will instead use more precise terminology, such as "extremely unethical crony capitalist pigs raising prices on life saving drugs in an improperly regulated free market system that encourages corruption."

Of course the immediate shortcut is to simply call it evil, whereupon we can demonize the people we disagree with and kill them off, because they were evil, but we weren't... right?
 

ResolutionBlaze

Angry Local
Banned
I am neither an objectivist nor a relativist, which I think might be what you mean by subjectivist. If not correct me.

And yes, you did pull extreme examples that most of us can readily call evil. And it's quite appalling that these people so willingly committed so many crimes, or did they? Lots of things become seemingly rational if people are threatening to kill you if you don't do x, y and z, and those people are also afraid of punishment, all the way to the top to Hitler.

Of course by now we haven't even had a real philosophical discussion and we've already both invoked Hitler, which basically means ammunition [sic] is a tad low.

What about other acts? I think a corporation that raises the price of epipens 609% overnight is evil. Except, I won't use that moralist word, and will instead use more precise terminology, such as "extremely unethical crony capitalist pigs raising prices on life saving drugs in an improperly regulated free market system that encourages corruption."

Of course the immediate shortcut is to simply call it evil, whereupon we can demonize the people we disagree with and kill them off, because they were evil, but we weren't... right?

Well, if we are going to talk about the nature of good and evil, why can't I give examples of evil of the obvious form then? Because it's too self evident? I need a more vague or "smart" example?

Either way, your arguments just seem confused. It seems like you're avoiding using the term evil because you don't wanna be in the ranks of "those gosh darn moralists" that you seem to be quite accusative of... for some reason.

It's as though in the act of calling something evil you too will become evil. And somehow, but demolishing the definitions of both good and evil, the world would be better... how? Am I mixing up your philosophy? It just seems confused to me.

Furthermore, why would you attribute the highest good to the people who committed atrocities? Perhaps you would want that control; after all, Hitler came to power because he acted as a voice to the people for the most part. That's why he was considered so charismatic to Germans. Again, I urge you to study "Ordinary Men"

www.goodreads.com: Ordinary Men: Reserve Police Battalion 101 and the Final Solution in Poland by Christopher R. Browning
 

DarkoKavinsky

ʎʇʇɐq ʇıq ɐ
Evil does exist, and there is also good.

(I've written what i had to say in a spoiler as I feel this is off topic.)
Extreme examples are just that the extreme end. Its when you go down to the real life day to day examples, or situations in where things are easily skewed or could go both ways.

Large entities and small time psychopaths are able to do what recognize as evil.
Its when you get into actions done for just causes do things become odd.

Like a man stealing medicine he could never afford to keep somebody from dying from an illness it can treat.

Or killing in self defense. Or during a break in.

There are many things in the middle ground that are hard to say.

Like say a person who deals drugs in order to help his little brother pay for college so he can hopefully get out of the life.

When you get into that middle ground section of grey things become less clear.

Of course according to most monotheistical religions everything is a sin, therefore evil. But this is a topic that is best Not discussed here. I've put a lot of thought into subject because where I grew up was arguably filled with evil people who viewed they were just due to political notions and ideologies of blind acceptance.

If we want to duke this out I suggest we go create a new thread to spark this dumpster fire
 

ResolutionBlaze

Angry Local
Banned
Evil does exist, and there is also good.

(I've written what i had to say in a spoiler as I feel this is off topic.)
Extreme examples are just that the extreme end. Its when you go down to the real life day to day examples, or situations in where things are easily skewed or could go both ways.

Large entities and small time psychopaths are able to do what recognize as evil.
Its when you get into actions done for just causes do things become odd.

Like a man stealing medicine he could never afford to keep somebody from dying from an illness it can treat.

Or killing in self defense. Or during a break in.

There are many things in the middle ground that are hard to say.

Like say a person who deals drugs in order to help his little brother pay for college so he can hopefully get out of the life.

When you get into that middle ground section of grey things become less clear.

Of course according to most monotheistical religions everything is a sin, therefore evil. But this is a topic that is best Not discussed here. I've put a lot of thought into subject because where I grew up was arguably filled with evil people who viewed they were just due to political notions and ideologies of blind acceptance.

If we want to duke this out I suggest we go create a new thread to spark this dumpster fire

Agreed. This discussion is best kept in DMs. In which case, DM me if you're interested I love arguing this.
 

DarkoKavinsky

ʎʇʇɐq ʇıq ɐ
Agreed. This discussion is best kept in DMs. In which case, DM me if you're interested I love arguing this.
I personally don't as I grew up in a area so skewed I think my views on life are forever tainted therefore I am inherently evil.

Because I've been treated like a freak and a monster my whole life :)

So you tend to gain some dark outlooks on things and I'd rather not get into these types of religious/ moral debates as I'm in the pessimistic ball park of humanity is for the most part utter shit who will fuck you over in a heart beat and leave the dagger in your back while walking away whistling.

I've only had a few rare examples that proves otherwise in my life.

This isn't a topic i love discussing as it flashes back moments in my life I'd rather not relive or think about.
 

ChapterAquila92

Resident Bronze Dragon Kasrkin
Banned
Where good and evil are concerned, this is one of the few times where I'm in agreement with BahgDaddy from the outset, if only in principle.

Good and evil are human constructs whose meanings to the relevant masses are heavily reliant on inter-subjective contexts, and even these presumably crystal-clear ideas are muddied in light of the moral contradictions inherent in all societies. To use a modern example, the values of individualism and equality, perceived as being good in and of themselves in Western society, are mutually and fundamentally incompatible without a socially-enforced dissonance or compromise that reconciles both that people are respectively different and yet somehow also the same. In this particular case, the end results are concepts such as equitability and equality of opportunity.

Another example, coincidentally enough, was the dissonance between chivalry and Christianity in Medieval Europe, whose own ad hoc reconciliation coalesced as the adoption of just war theory and the crusades among other things.

It would similarly hold that values we consider to be evil can equivocally be just as contradictory.

Ultimately, the only concepts of good or evil that we can acknowledge fall under the domains of the personal subjective and the inter-subjective common-type, with the caveat that they must be defined in specific detail or else take on the nebulous pretense of the so-called "greater good".

 
Last edited:

Stealtheart

Fuair siad bás ar son saoirse na hÉireann.
Although I'm an atheist I don't deny my being raised by an American Midwest Christian family didn't shape my moral beliefs. But I don't have qualms with that.
I do hold tightly to my political, social and moral views and do have strong opinions on certain psychological and metaphysical subjects and subscribe to most scientific theories on the creation of the universe, the world, and life. A lot of my beliefs take a good amount of faith so in my own way I'm a faithful man.
 
Last edited:

Saiko

GTWT Survivor
Bitch what the fuck, are you on drugs?
Im sure I was a satanist longer then you are, sorry if that bothers you.
I thought she was talking to Ovi?
 

Saiko

GTWT Survivor
I'm not a satanist? o_O
But you were the only one picking at her posts. What else would “coming at me” refer to? I’m so confused.

This is why we use quotes!
 

ResolutionBlaze

Angry Local
Banned
Where good and evil are concerned, this is one of the few times where I'm in agreement with BahgDaddy from the outset, if only in principle.

Good and evil are human constructs whose meanings to the relevant masses are heavily reliant on inter-subjective contexts, and even these presumably crystal-clear ideas are muddied in light of the moral contradictions inherent in all societies. To use a modern example, the values of individualism and equality, perceived as being good in and of themselves in Western society, are mutually and fundamentally incompatible without a socially-enforced dissonance or compromise that reconciles both that people are respectively different and yet somehow also the same. In this particular case, the end results are concepts such as equitability and equality of opportunity.

Another example, coincidentally enough, was the dissonance between chivalry and Christianity in Medieval Europe, whose own ad hoc reconciliation coalesced as the adoption of just war theory and the crusades among other things.

It would similarly hold that values we consider to be evil can equivocally be just as contradictory.

Ultimately, the only concepts of good or evil that we can acknowledge fall under the domains of the personal subjective and the inter-subjective common-type, with the caveat that they must be defined in specific detail or else take on the nebulous pretense of the so-called "greater good".


Well no, you seem to be assuming that good and evil, like all who make these arguments, are not dependent on circumstances or that our understanding of good and evil can't change based on the discovery of new values.

This doesn't mean morals are simply subjective, but it means that morals are certainly circumstantial; that is to say, you can often find yourself in a situation where something that would be strictly considered evil under normal circumstances, like killing someone, would be morally justifiable if that someone was attempted to murder you or someone else. Or perhaps you're in a situation where there are simply no good decisions left to make, and you're only stuck with wrong decisions, and the only "right" decision is to choose the least wrong choice; then all you can do is look back and think how did you get to this point?

It seems the argument you and Bahgdaddy is making is that the concept of good and evil allows for more evil because of it's vague nature, but that's not necessarily true. Good and evil aren't too vague, it's only as vague as the people pretend it is; otherwise it seems pretty clear to me that in most situations and levels of analysis, you can figure out pretty easily what is good or evil in circumstances, it takes minimal analysis usually.

TL;DR - Good and Evil are circumstantial, and because of that the argument that they are too vague doesn't hold water because it really just takes simple analysis of situations to figure out what is the good and bad decision.
 
B

BahgDaddy

Guest
Short and sweet - good and evil are lately religious terms. A whole lot of bloody carnage has been caused by religion waging war on those who are supposedly evil. If someone is evil, it becomes easier to see them as less human, and then easier and easier to kill them.

And as @DarkoKavinsky pointed out, there are a lot of grey areas in life. Sometimes people lie, cheat and steal to survive or help a loved one. Sometimes they do it for personal power.

Sometimes people go to war to stop Nazis. Sometimes people go to war to get a nation's resources and rape and pillage. Sometimes people go to war and then afterwards nobody has a flipping clue why they were fighting.

I don't reject the terms of good and evil, but I do asset that they're a false dichotomy and create an overly simplistic way of viewing the world.
 

ResolutionBlaze

Angry Local
Banned
Short and sweet - good and evil are lately religious terms. A whole lot of bloody carnage has been caused by religion waging war on those who are supposedly evil. If someone is evil, it becomes easier to see them as less human, and then easier and easier to kill them.

And as @DarkoKavinsky pointed out, there are a lot of grey areas in life. Sometimes people lie, cheat and steal to survive or help a loved one. Sometimes they do it for personal power.

Sometimes people go to war to stop Nazis. Sometimes people go to war to get a nation's resources and rape and pillage. Sometimes people go to war and then afterwards nobody has a flipping clue why they were fighting.

I don't reject the terms of good and evil, but I do asset that they're a false dichotomy and create an overly simplistic way of viewing the world.

Ironically, that's an unfair simplification itself; every concept ever made before science was developed was likely religious or philosophical. Even the Greeks weren't scientists; great philosophers and rational thinkers but we didn't really have science until about 500 years ago.

Does that mean we have to dispense with any knowledge gathered at that time because they were discovered before science was even a thing? Evil remains whether you want to redefine it because it's """too religious""" or not.
 
I've been practicing Wicca for about half a year now. It's unfortunate that so many people have the wrong idea about what our morals and practices.
 
B

BahgDaddy

Guest
Ironically, that's an unfair simplification itself; every concept ever made before science was developed was likely religious or philosophical. Even the Greeks weren't scientists; great philosophers and rational thinkers but we didn't really have science until about 500 years ago.

Does that mean we have to dispense with any knowledge gathered at that time because they were discovered before science was even a thing? Evil remains whether you want to redefine it because it's """too religious""" or not.

Of course evil remains. Who said otherwise?
 
Top