Why do people always assume a person is gay if they talk a certain way?

[Schrodinger'sMeerkat]

I'm from a very conservative area where LGBT isn't really accepted. My mom watches a lot of cooking shows and sometimes one of the judges or contestants is a man who talks with a particular accent. She's always like, "He must be gay!" and I'm like, "How do you know?" She says, "Because of how he talks". I reminded her of this autistic boy we used to know who used to talk like that and was NOT gay but got bullied for it anyway (like I said, this is a very conservative town). So why is every other person who talks like that automatically "gay". Yes, some gay men do talk like that. But there are gay men that don't. It always bothers me because I have a few friends who are gay and when people are like, "Oh he must be gay" it kinda means they want to discrimate against them for it.

 

[quoting_mungo]

Short answer is “stereotypes.”

Really, though, a lot of the people who would judge someone as gay (I think “that guy comes off as gay” as an observation without judgement is a different story) based on speech patterns or mannerisms don’t really care whether they’re correct. It’s just as bad to be metrosexual or effeminate to many of these people as it is to actually be homosexual. I obviously can’t speak for whether that’s true in your mother’s case, but, well.

People who think a guy is gay for having a lisp are likely to also have opinions about what it entails to be “a real man.”

 

[NilsTeutschLW97]

Good question. It doesn't even make sense. I know many gay men who are more masculine than many straights. It ain't so black and white, folks.

 

[Amepix]

Stereotypes are ingrained into everyone's skulls!


Imagine that like a commercial jingle

 

[a sleepy kitty]

Both my gay dads do not talk like that.

 

[FoxZarz]

I'm 100% gay and i don't "talk like a gay"
Those are just dumb stereotypes, I know a friend that "talks like a gay" and i can ensure you that he is not, he even has a girlfriend

 

[Vanessa Howl]

The really flamboyant gays have what I like to call the gay accent: it's a very specific (sometimes subtle but not always) accent that some gay guys put on where you KNOW they are making themselves talk like that on purpose because no one just naturally sounds like that.

Trust me you know it when you hear it and some people absolutely have it. Not EVERY gay guy has it, of course but some do and it's very easy to point out when it happens.

 

[Ziggy Schlacht]

I'm not sure anyone here is answering OP's question that well - stereotypes are the answer, yes, but no one has answered where those stereotypes come from.

I can tell you that the lisp-means-gay isn't universal, and I suspect it's more an anglo-world thing. Spanish, when spoken with the Castillian accent, introduces a lisp to certain words. Bar-the-lona, not Barcelona. There's myths about it being because a king had a lisp, so everyone imitated, but no proof - and it's only assigned to c's and z's not s's. At least now. Could've been true but drifted. Granted, the "proper english accent" as opposed to the northern-english growl or the cockney twang also supposedly arose so the rich would sound different and not like those pleebs. So there might be some truth.

To the point of where the lisp-means-gay, and the related "gay accent," stereotype arose, I found this article: https://www.science.org/content/article/where-did-gay-lisp-stereotype-come

There's some correlation that gender-queer boys more often have a lisp. But, more interestingly, cis men and women pronounce S's differently (again, anglo-world). Women pronounce them more crisply than men. Gay men, at least the more effeminate ones, tend to imitate this pattern of speech and pronounce their S's somewhat more crisply than straight men. The result is there is a "gay accent."

Something else interesting was this study: https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/24578106/

This found that the lisp is heavily perceived as being associated with being gay, and based on speech patterns alone, researchers were able to correctly ID orientation about 56% of the time. So better odds than a coin flip. Hardly a good predictor, but stereotypes don't need to need a lot of real life evidence to carry through, just a few data points. Confirmation bias is a hell of a thing. This can be enhanced by pop culture latching on to a stereotype or two and suddenly the lisp is shorthand for someone being gay - in the same way glasses are shorthand for smart.

 

[BooTheHamster]

The unofficial term for it is "lavender linguistics" and I wonder if it stems as much from a deliberate choice for some men to take on speech mannerisms that allow other like minded men to locate them without outright saying they are gay, as any other potential explanation. The stereotype quite possibly became a kind of shibboleth by being played into. Something I have personally observed (including in myself) is that people in general kind of gradually pick up accents and mannerisms to fit into certain demographics - sometimes it's a locality, other times it's an association less contingent upon where one is and more about who one wishes to associate and identify with.

It should be noted that I don't think this is a complete, 100 percent guarantee but is more of a marked tendency, and it's stronger in some people than in others. I find myself slipping into speech mannerisms peculiar to my locality fairly rapidly as I hear them around me. There's also the fact that accents and mannerisms can absolutely be trained - see the "news anchor" speech pattern, that is something that people who enter into that field typically cultivate very deliberately as it perceived as being the easiest to understand for the greatest number of viewers (at least that is the rationale I have been told is behind it).

 

[EndoErean]

you mean when someone is femenine?. There's just a higer probability, even tho this is not always the case.
Being judgmental is something everyoneends up doing if they aren't rised in a certain way, or they dont keep it in check., that doesn't make it not even one inch ok tho.
I have encountered so many judgmental people and most of them the do it out of sheer ignorance o because they're afraid of something.

 

[Fallowfox]

So I've always wondered about this:

Anyway. I'm a gay man and I have a 'masculine' voice. I wouldn't be surprised if that's more common among gay men than feminine expression.

I'm not sure anyone here is answering OP's question that well - stereotypes are the answer, yes, but no one has answered where those stereotypes come from.

I can tell you that the lisp-means-gay isn't universal, and I suspect it's more an anglo-world thing. Spanish, when spoken with the Castillian accent, introduces a lisp to certain words. Bar-the-lona, not Barcelona. There's myths about it being because a king had a lisp, so everyone imitated, but no proof - and it's only assigned to c's and z's not s's. At least now. Could've been true but drifted. Granted, the "proper english accent" as opposed to the northern-english growl or the cockney twang also supposedly arose so the rich would sound different and not like those pleebs. So there might be some truth.

To the point of where the lisp-means-gay, and the related "gay accent," stereotype arose, I found this article: https://www.science.org/content/article/where-did-gay-lisp-stereotype-come

There's some correlation that gender-queer boys more often have a lisp. But, more interestingly, cis men and women pronounce S's differently (again, anglo-world). Women pronounce them more crisply than men. Gay men, at least the more effeminate ones, tend to imitate this pattern of speech and pronounce their S's somewhat more crisply than straight men. The result is there is a "gay accent."

Something else interesting was this study: https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/24578106/

This found that the lisp is heavily perceived as being associated with being gay, and based on speech patterns alone, researchers were able to correctly ID orientation about 56% of the time. So better odds than a coin flip. Hardly a good predictor, but stereotypes don't need to need a lot of real life evidence to carry through, just a few data points. Confirmation bias is a hell of a thing. This can be enhanced by pop culture latching on to a stereotype or two and suddenly the lisp is shorthand for someone being gay - in the same way glasses are shorthand for smart.

Thanks for posting this paper. I need to read it properly, but straight away a single number is not enough to tell whether the prediction was better than random; there isn't a 50% chance that somebody picked at random is gay, and the prediction needs to be quantified with false positive and negative rates, rather than a single number.

Edit. I cannot find an open access version.
In essence only a small minority of men tend to be exclusively homosexual (1-6%) , so if female listeners do have the power to identify half of them that could be very strong evidence (depending on the false positive rate).

 

[ssaannttoo]

I’m technically not gay, but I have the ‘gay voice’ lite edition. Sometimes it’s stronger than others but it more or less depends on my comfort levels with a person and a situation. I’m in this class where we talk about in groups and others, and how the in group takes a defined physical trait and puts that trait as an other, or undesired. Then ethics or morals are assigned to this other group, in this case homosexuality.

Give a group you don’t like a trait, perpetuate the stereotype that goes with said trait and make yourself seem better in the process.

 

[ssaannttoo]

But this is also an odd subject because it is taking gender expression and twisting that into sexuality which are two different things. Like a dude that sounds feminine isn’t gay because sounding feminine is a gendered trait, and doesn’t effect sexuality.

Like men should have a deep voice and women should have a higher voice. And therefor if dudes like men they must be feminine cause two masculine people going at it sounds weird. TBH I don’t know why it was chosen to be this as a stereotype. When it comes to othering the in group generally doesn’t stop to think what makes the most sense, they sorta just do whatever they feel like because they can.

 

[Connor J. Coyote]

I'm from a very conservative area where LGBT isn't really accepted. My mom watches a lot of cooking shows and sometimes one of the judges or contestants is a man who talks with a particular accent. She's always like, "He must be gay!" and I'm like, "How do you know?" She says, "Because of how he talks". I reminded her of this autistic boy we used to know who used to talk like that and was NOT gay but got bullied for it anyway (like I said, this is a very conservative town).

And after you reminded her, what was her response? Did she shrug it off?

Or did she revise her thinking after you told her this and say something different?

You didn't say...... but if it's the latter then that means she's probably open minded enough to hear other points of view, and that's a good thing....... and as her child - it's probably incumbent upon you to let her know about these things and to educate her about it..... if you find that her statements are uncomfortable for you, or even bigoted towards others at times.

And if other member's of your family are the same way (and say the same things)....... then the same principle probably applies.

And if you interjected (with her or with them) when they make these comments - and say to them what you said to us here: that it's not necessarily an indication of one's sexuality with how they talk, and could even be considered disciminatory which could lead to someone else being harassed unnecessarily - then...... at that point they may change their ways upon hearing this; (if for anything for your benefit..... seeing that you're their relative and that it bothers you).

So why is every other person who talks like that automatically "gay". Yes, some gay men do talk like that. But there are gay men that don't.

Well, not everyone is; and not everyone thinks this way about that type of speech...... (like you're relatives and neighbors apparently do)........ but it isn't just conservative communities that think this way either, honestly.

I live in San Francisco (for example) and I can tell you that: even in places like where I live...... (which most people regard as a very politically liberal place) - stereotypes, anti-gay biases, and even anti-gay violence still occurs.

And so, being in a so-called "gay mecca" can still present the same problems as being in a community like yours. And so, it's incumbent upon us (as relatives) when we hear our family members do this to educate them, but also as a community - to not tolerate it when discrimination and crimes are commited either.

 

[ssaannttoo]

I think it’s really important to remember you’re not ‘educating’ people, you’re just communicating with them as a friend. If somebody thinks one way about the world and you see it differently telling somebody you’re going to educate them will likely turn them away from it, expecially family members. Learning how to do so softly and respectfully is SUPER important expecially when doing it with family. Because at the end of the day it’s beneficial to have a relationship with them.

Stay safe and do what you think works best for the situation. But remember people who think this way aren’t evil, they have been taught a thing (not formally but through living and experiencing stereotypes). They just need to be shown what’s up.

 

[RamblingRenegade]

I mean I tell people I'm 80% straight, 80% of the time I like women, the other 20% I could go either way. I don't have the "gay talk" but I know a few guys who do

 

[Inferndragon]

Stereotypes are the only main reason.
And when something confirms their bias they are more likely to keep that stereotype in their mind.
Confirmation bias is a common issue we all have.

In the end what they think doesn't actually matter in the end.
Your mother is from another generation where Stereotypes were the norm.
That generation soon will become a minority compared to the rest of the world and a different way of thinking becomes the norm.

 

[Mambi]

I'm from a very conservative area where LGBT isn't really accepted. My mom watches a lot of cooking shows and sometimes one of the judges or contestants is a man who talks with a particular accent. She's always like, "He must be gay!" and I'm like, "How do you know?" She says, "Because of how he talks". I reminded her of this autistic boy we used to know who used to talk like that and was NOT gay but got bullied for it anyway (like I said, this is a very conservative town). So why is every other person who talks like that automatically "gay". Yes, some gay men do talk like that. But there are gay men that don't. It always bothers me because I have a few friends who are gay and when people are like, "Oh he must be gay" it kinda means they want to discrimate against them for it.

Because they never heard of "femboys" before? <shrug>

 

[BooTheHamster]

Because they never heard of "femboys" before? <shrug>

Maybe they haven't. I think a lot of demographics, interest groups and such vastly overestimate how well known they are (even in the age of the Internet). A lot of demographic/subculture/interest group stuff requires you to go looking for it in the first place, even if you see a blurb about it somewhere without actively seeking it out you're as like as not to just discard it mentally and go about your day rather than go "hey, what is that? Is that something interesting? Let me look into it." if it doesn't carry some kind of important connotation ("such and such is bringing about the downfall of society" type tabloidesque articles and such).

 

[Filter]

My best guess is that it started with somebody famous, and others perpetuated the association. I've met guys with lisps and I've met gay guys, but I've never personally met a gay guy with a lisp. Or if I did, I didn't know it. There are some out there, just like there are straight people with lisps, but I don't see what one has to do with the other.

Anyway, since when do bullies care about facts? I'll bet knowing their target's real orientation wouldn't even matter to them. They just want to be jerks. Probably because of their own insecurities or sociopathic tendencies.

 

[BooTheHamster]

Anyway, since when do bullies care about facts? I'll bet knowing their target's real orientation wouldn't matter to them. They just want to be jerks. Probably because of their own insecurities or sociopathic tendencies.

This, to a tee. What qualities a bully (or whichever term you prefer) fixates on in another to justify their behavior towards that person is post-hoc rationalization, and its veracity (and taking such into consideration) is a red herring that typically has little or nothing to do with the actual root cause.

e.g. "The gays are causing the downfall of society" - If this were true it would put LGBTQ+ people straight into fucking Lex Luthor-tier evil genius and power. The fact that more people don't realize how pants-on-head this sounds and how (when used to reinforce the idea of everyone else being victimized by this demographic) it makes their "opponents" seem like inept fuckwits boggles my mind. The premise is ludicrous on its face, but that's unimportant because it can be used to establish a narrative that allows the bully to isolate the victim(s) via emotional hijack of onlookers (this is especially pernicious when smears like "gays reproduce via child molestation" are used, and is why I look at any "think of the children!" messaging with an EXTREMELY jaundiced eye)

 

[Connor J. Coyote]

I think it’s really important to remember you’re not ‘educating’ people, you’re just communicating with them as a friend. If somebody thinks one way about the world and you see it differently telling somebody you’re going to educate them will likely turn them away from it, expecially family members. Learning how to do so softly and respectfully is SUPER important expecially when doing it with family.

Well...... yes and no. Communicating with them about certain topics and points of view - is in a way, enlightening them, right? Which means you're informing them of certain points of view and everyday realities of certain lives they may be unaware of out there in the World, (and this is often times especially true with gay people, stereotypes, and the environments in places like the OP describes...... and in essence.... that's the definition of what "educating" them is, in my book.

With that said now...... the consensus idiotic logic that exists apparently within this thread some people may have - given some of the postings above (not you specifically mind you) - which says that would you point blank tell them: something along the lines of "I'm educating you when I tell you this", is obvisouly not something you would want to do facially to somone, if you want people listen to you.

But....... yes - you can "inform them" in a "safe" and "softer tone" way - by saying something along the lines of: "I'd like to give you a different perspective if I may that may shed some light on this issue that I'd like to talk with you about", is probably a better way to go about it.

Because at the end of the day it’s beneficial to have a relationship with them.

Well of course it is....... which is why people like the OP may benefit a lot by engaging with them on the topic further...... seeing that the statements they've made in the past may bother him/her.

If the family members and even friends care about them (those like the OP) then they'll most likely be willing to "hear out" the points of view that may shed some light on the issues better, if they bring it up.

And so......... enlightening them (in a safe way mind you) "nudge-nudge" is beneficial for just about everyone at the table...... the relatives and people like the OP, if for anything the interpersonal relationships they all have together.

In the end what they think doesn't actually matter in the end.

Well, yes it does for many people....... one's parent's having anti-gay biased opinions (for example) can certainly *matter* to a gay child in that situation. We care about our parents....... and we care about their opinions a whole hell of a lot.

And thus, outreaching to them (in a safe way) either at home or after they've moved out about these issues is something many people would want to try....... be it gay people, inter-racial marriage, other religious views, etcetera.

Your mother is from another generation where Stereotypes were the norm.That generation soon will become a minority compared to the rest of the world and a different way of thinking becomes the norm.

Maybe....... but even if our parents and other family members are in the "minority viewpoint" we still care about them an awful lot..... if for anything - the fact that they're our family members and our parents.

Anyway, since when do bullies care about facts?

Honestly to you (for whatever it's worth): I think the word "bully" is way over-used by many people....... like the word "troll" is. Having a different opinion doesn't make someone either one necessarily (just because they may say or do certain things that one disagrees with, or may be or look stupid)...... it could just mean that they're different and have a different take on things; and if they're willing to hear out other points of view, then..... all the better.

And that could be an opportunity to enlighten them if one has the safety and desire to do so.

 

[ConorHyena]

e.g. "The gays are causing the downfall of society" - If this were true it would put LGBTQ+ people straight into fucking Lex Luthor-tier evil genius and power. The fact that more people don't realize how pants-on-head this sounds and how (when used to reinforce the idea of everyone else being victimized by this demographic) it makes their "opponents" seem like inept fuckwits boggles my mind.

This is the standing joke in every conspiracy theory out there "All powerful conspiracy that can do anything they want and do [X] without being observed by anyone or leaving any trace" but people still post about it and discuss it on the internet without anything happening to them.

 

[BooTheHamster]

Well...... yes and no. Communicating with them about certain topics and points of view - is in a way, enlightening them, right? Which means you're informing them of certain points of view and everyday realities of certain lives they may be unaware of out there in the World, (and this is often times especially true with gay people, stereotypes, and the environments in places like the OP describes...... and in essence.... that's the definition of what "educating" them is, in my book.

With that said now...... the consensus idiotic logic that exists apparently within this thread some people may have - given some of the postings above (not you specifically mind you) - which says that would you point blank tell them: something along the lines of "I'm educating you when I tell you this", is obvisouly not something you would want to do facially to somone, if you want people listen to you.

But....... yes - you can "inform them" in a "safe" and "softer tone" way - by saying something along the lines of: "I'd like to give you a different perspective if I may that may shed some light on this issue that I'd like to talk with you about", is probably a better way to go about it.

Well of course it is....... which is why people like the OP may benefit a lot by engaging with them on the topic further...... seeing that the statements they've made in the past may bother him/her.

If the family members and even friends care about them (those like the OP) then they'll most likely be willing to "hear out" the points of view that may shed some light on the issues better, if they bring it up.

And so......... enlightening them (in a safe way mind you) "nudge-nudge" is beneficial for just about everyone at the table...... the relatives and people like the OP, if for anything the interpersonal relationships they all have together.

Well, yes it does for many people....... one's parent's having anti-gay biased opinions (for example) can certainly *matter* to a gay child in that situation. We care about our parents....... and we care about their opinions a whole hell of a lot.

And thus, outreaching to them (in a safe way) either at home or after they've moved out about these issues is something many people would want to try....... be it gay people, inter-racial marriage, other religious views, etcetera.

Maybe....... but even if our parents and other family members are in the "minority viewpoint" we still care about them an awful lot..... if for anything - the fact that they're our family members and our parents.

Honestly to you (for whatever it's worth): I think the word "bully" is way over-used by many people....... like the word "troll" is. Having a different opinion doesn't make someone either one necessarily (just because they may say or do certain things that one disagrees with, or may be or look stupid)...... it could just mean that they're different and have a different take on things; and if they're willing to hear out other points of view, then..... all the better.

And that could be an opportunity to enlighten them if one has the safety and desire to do so.

Possible overuse of the term aside, the word "bully" can be clearly defined as someone who takes advantage of a perceived power disparity to cause harm to another, typically to try and increase their own power or standing (either in their own eyes or in those of others whose esteem they value). I personally think the term is too light and/or diminutive of the problem in some situations, but as common parlance that can be understood to mean a thing, it is useful. Some people misuse it because it does have value as a descriptor, but the point stands.

 

[Connor J. Coyote]

Possible overuse of the term aside, the word "bully" can be clearly defined as someone who takes advantage of a perceived power disparity to cause harm to another, typically to try and increase their own power or standing (either in their own eyes or in those of others whose esteem they value). I personally think the term is too light and/or diminutive of the problem in some situations, but as common parlance that can be understood to mean a thing, it is useful. Some people misuse it because it does have value as a descriptor, but the point stands.

Well, it is a powerful descriptor (as a term) and the definition you wrote I'd probably agree with in substance..... but my point (to the other users above) is that an "over usage" of the term (that's used by many) could be seen by some also as an easy way to throw out a "character based criticism" towards a person or person(s) that one disagrees with - simply because they can't come up with anything better as a response to certain belief systems or certain points made...... and in turn over time - it could actually muddly the waters of what the term actually means with many people.

Thus, by re-using the term over and over - the word "bully" can take on a whole new meaning (than what it's supposed to mean) and can possibly be used as a label with those we simply disagree with, even though no actual "bullying" is taking place seeing that there's no real power imbalances between them.
-------------------------
In any case..... I wouldn't call someone like the OP's parent a "bully" per say..... as they may just be mis-informed..... and thus - various outreachs conducted by the OP to discuss the issues further may benefit them all.