Why I don't carry a gun!
- Thread starter Roose Hurro
- Start date
Mayfurr
Mostly Harmless
And your point is... ?
Criminals killing criminals... if you don't get the point, then you just don't get the point.
Mayfurr
Mostly Harmless
Don't blame me if you're unable or unwilling to explain your views.
I assume that in YOUR view that a criminal killing another criminal isn't actually murder?
If that's the case - Bullshit.
Murder is murder.
Obviously, you don't get the point...
Criminals break the law. Criminals are bad. Criminals need to be removed from society. If they are killing each other, then they are not killing the innocent. So, in order to compare statistics of murder properly, you need to separate criminals killing criminals from criminals killing innocents. Gang related and non-gang related. Understand? Or need I go into excruciating detail on every single little point...? Yes, murder is murder. But murder comes in many forms, these two being a major statistical separation factor. Far as I'm concerned...
lilEmber
Small Dragon
No... murder is murder, even a criminal killing another is still murder; there's no way you're this stupid, I call troll at this point.
As well, here's those links for proof you want (all this talk about homework all the time and you can't get the first google result for USA murder count)
This site says 4.2802 murders per 100, 000 people in the USA; 1.49063 murders per 100, 000 people in Canada; as for the percentage of murder commited in USA and Canada with firearms use this: Crime in Canada; "Approximately 70 percent of the total murders in the U.S. are committed with firearms, versus about 30 percent in Canada."
As well, here's those links for proof you want (all this talk about homework all the time and you can't get the first google result for USA murder count)
This site says 4.2802 murders per 100, 000 people in the USA; 1.49063 murders per 100, 000 people in Canada; as for the percentage of murder commited in USA and Canada with firearms use this: Crime in Canada; "Approximately 70 percent of the total murders in the U.S. are committed with firearms, versus about 30 percent in Canada."
Strange, how your figures changed from your original posted "facts":
Also, it would be nice to have figures not coming from a publicly editable site such as Wiki...
And yes, murder is murder... I have no idea why you keep flogging a dead horse, when that isn't the issue. The issue is, how much of that 70% of gun-related murders in the US are gang-related... gang members (criminals) killing gang members (criminals)... and how much of that is criminals killing INNOCENTS (the law-abiding). In other words, are the figures of 30% in Canada mostly criminals killing innocents, while most of the 70% is criminals killing criminals?
But, hey, lets compare even further:
http://www.nationmaster.com/graph/cri_mur_percap-crime-murders-per-capita
Note that the US is #24 on the list. And Canada is #44, even better, hmmm? But that still makes 23 nations worse than the United States...
Here is another list, more specific to what we are discussing here:
http://www.nationmaster.com/graph/cri_mur_wit_fir_percap-crime-murders-firearms-per-capita
The US is at #8, and Canada is at #20. Note that on this list, Canada is only 12 slots below the US, while on the other list, the spread was 20 slots. Canada is lower on murders as a whole, but is closer in murders by gun. And though the number has decreased, there are still 7 nations more gun-violent than the United States. Canada jumped up 24 slots, while the US jumped up only 16 slots.
Oh, and here is the link I got these links from:
http://progunprogressive.com/?p=35
This is a notable paragraph:
Oh, and do pay attention to the last paragraph:
I'd also recommend reading the comments section...
Further, you might want to read this:
http://www.allbusiness.com/crime-law-enforcement-corrections/criminal-offenses-crimes/8898526-1.html ... careful, my comp didn't like this site! So, perhaps these will be safer for everybody (no adware crap):
http://www.benbest.com/lifeext/murder.html
http://scienceblogs.com/gnxp/2008/04/americans_are_good_at_murder.php
http://scienceblogs.com/deltoid/1995/11/international-00025.php ... this has a very interesting viewpoint...
lilEmber
Small Dragon
It's 2008, not 2007. It was easier to link one link for both rather than two; my argument still stands even if the number has changed by one point, Canada was also lower, so that balances perfectly.
Learn2debate, dumbass.
Gangs are gangs, every country has them; stop focusing on a insignificant factor for a stupid argument, seriously; go take images of gang member killing people in your area if it's such a large number surely you can find some images yourself with a camera.
Also the countries above the USA..did you even look at the names? ...seriously? This is also murder in general on that site, clearly not firearms.
But yes, the USA is better than: South Africa, Colombia, Thailand, Zimbabwe, Mexico, Belarus, and Costa Rica; even if some of those are getting their firearms from the US...but you can have your cookie.
Race...Americans aren't a unique race; Americans are...fuck you're stupid. I can't argue with somebody with the intellect of an infant any longer.
(Sorry for all the edits, and insults ;3)
Learn2debate, dumbass.
Gangs are gangs, every country has them; stop focusing on a insignificant factor for a stupid argument, seriously; go take images of gang member killing people in your area if it's such a large number surely you can find some images yourself with a camera.
Also the countries above the USA..did you even look at the names? ...seriously? This is also murder in general on that site, clearly not firearms.
But yes, the USA is better than: South Africa, Colombia, Thailand, Zimbabwe, Mexico, Belarus, and Costa Rica; even if some of those are getting their firearms from the US...but you can have your cookie.
Race...Americans aren't a unique race; Americans are...fuck you're stupid. I can't argue with somebody with the intellect of an infant any longer.
(Sorry for all the edits, and insults ;3)
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Bambi
Joined 2008 - Returned 2022
I disagree.
The gun culture in the United States is such that some people aren't going to use their weapons for defense, but intimidation, attention, or worse. On the other hand, I know many people who carry concealed weapons not having this problem so there stands a chance it might not be too big of a problem. However, when the problem arises people will take it very seriously -- to that extent, I still believe college campuses are no place for firearms (unless they're being carried by Law Enforcement.)
The greatest obstacle as I see it to the, "Firearms on Campus" piece, is the people. The social environment of the United States is such that the right to carry firearms on campus would likely arouse unwanted states of paranoia, mass-panic, and mass-hysteria in the residing (or attending) student body. It stands to reason that these negative states of psychological attentiveness would lead to bitter results as students tried to understand their newest, social obstacle: the free right to carry weapons. Suffice to say, it would inflame already existing social tensions between students, and would likely escalate matters to a more fatal scope. I don't consider a group of people, armed with mass-hysteria, anxiety, and firearms to be a good mix. Add that to the fact if proper security devices are not in place, students would likely start resolving social disputes with these weapons.
On the other hand, the second greatest obstacle is the campus itself. Except for well-funded academic sites, halls, dorms, laboratories, and classrooms keep students well within arms reach of one another. Close-quarters environments are not good enough places in my mind for a legally armed student to be. If a problem should arise he or she might stand a chance at stopping a school shooter, but keep in mind that this is also at the risk of hitting someone else. What becomes more of a problem out of this situation is confusion -- what if our school gunman is in Hallway B, and several students carrying handguns are scattered in the hallways next to him. If one student manages to shoot that gunman from Hallway C, but everyone else in Hallways A and D cannot figure out who the shooter is, than our hero will likely become a target. Firearms on college campuses, even in the wake or morning of a problem starting would stand a good chance at turning our schools into warzones. I don't like the thought of that.
Sure, we could screen the students -- but if we were, I'd like the evaluations to almost be harsh (not making it impossible to get a firearm, but making it harsh on the people who simply want it, to have it) so as to avoid potential problem students from getting armed. On the other hand, the social environment of a college campus is so complex that the actual reason to have the academic body armed would be lost in its most certain immaturity.
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JamestheDoc
Furry Artist
I'm a pacifist, not much for fighting of any type at all. Though I do think guns are interesting, I doubt I'd ever own one anytime soon. And if I did, it'd sit on a wall or in a case and look nice until I decided to shoot at paper targets or someone broke into my home.
Firearms are deadly, that's obvious. But the average responsible gun-owner isn't the problem, it's the people that buy guns illicitly. Recently a lot of the local rednecks have been complaining that Obama's putting a big tax on firearms and may even ban assault-grade weapons again. I kind of think something like that would help, but not cure, the problem. If guns cost more, or are outlawed, people selling to criminals on the streets will charge more, and criminals tend not to have a lot of money unless we're talking about the mafia. But they tend to be pretty good at selecting other criminals to take out.
There are cases where a gun-owner was truly saved by the fact they had a firearm and knew how to use it (that's a good set of words, "knew how to use it"). There are crazies out there, the chances of the average to have a stalker or have their home broken into (okay the home braking into is a little more common than stalkers) aren't too high, but they exist. And when that gun-owner kills or injures the miscreant and protects his family, he'll probably stand by the ability to own a gun, seeing it saved his life and the lives he cares about.
But there are also plenty of cases in where owning a gun has caused pain and injury to those who don't deserve it. And in most of those cases the firearms are not registered and have their serial numbers scratched off. It's not gun-owners in general that are the problem, it's the illegal gun-owners. Usually, if a person goes through the trouble to have a gun legally (background check, having the firearm registered to their name, waiting seven days, and getting a permit to carry if they so desire) they're doing it for protection or recreation. Those who have to crawl under all the red tape to get a gun (a convicted criminal is going to have a hard time buying a gun properly when it comes to the background check) are probably going to end up hurting an person who doesn't deserve getting shot.
It's better to have and not need something, than to need something and not have it, I guess. Like the advanced first aid kit I keep in my house and in my car. I probably won't need to start an endotracheal tube at home or drain the chest cavity at home, and I don't drive an ambulance, but if something were to happen I'd be very glad I had the tools necessary to save somebody. And if I were a gun owner, I'd be glad that if the situation ever occurred, I'd at least have a chance to take out the other guy in defense of myself and those I care about.
Firearms are deadly, that's obvious. But the average responsible gun-owner isn't the problem, it's the people that buy guns illicitly. Recently a lot of the local rednecks have been complaining that Obama's putting a big tax on firearms and may even ban assault-grade weapons again. I kind of think something like that would help, but not cure, the problem. If guns cost more, or are outlawed, people selling to criminals on the streets will charge more, and criminals tend not to have a lot of money unless we're talking about the mafia. But they tend to be pretty good at selecting other criminals to take out.
There are cases where a gun-owner was truly saved by the fact they had a firearm and knew how to use it (that's a good set of words, "knew how to use it"). There are crazies out there, the chances of the average to have a stalker or have their home broken into (okay the home braking into is a little more common than stalkers) aren't too high, but they exist. And when that gun-owner kills or injures the miscreant and protects his family, he'll probably stand by the ability to own a gun, seeing it saved his life and the lives he cares about.
But there are also plenty of cases in where owning a gun has caused pain and injury to those who don't deserve it. And in most of those cases the firearms are not registered and have their serial numbers scratched off. It's not gun-owners in general that are the problem, it's the illegal gun-owners. Usually, if a person goes through the trouble to have a gun legally (background check, having the firearm registered to their name, waiting seven days, and getting a permit to carry if they so desire) they're doing it for protection or recreation. Those who have to crawl under all the red tape to get a gun (a convicted criminal is going to have a hard time buying a gun properly when it comes to the background check) are probably going to end up hurting an person who doesn't deserve getting shot.
It's better to have and not need something, than to need something and not have it, I guess. Like the advanced first aid kit I keep in my house and in my car. I probably won't need to start an endotracheal tube at home or drain the chest cavity at home, and I don't drive an ambulance, but if something were to happen I'd be very glad I had the tools necessary to save somebody. And if I were a gun owner, I'd be glad that if the situation ever occurred, I'd at least have a chance to take out the other guy in defense of myself and those I care about.
Mayfurr
Mostly Harmless
You're still talking bullshit.
The only reason you want to separate out criminal-on-criminal killing is in a pathetic attempt to make US stats sound better than they are - rather like during the Olympics when American TV networks ranked US#1 by total medal count when actually China was leading by gold medal count...
Oh, and your links?
Murders with firearms (per capita)
United States: #8 (0.0279271 per 1,000 people)
New Zealand: #31 (0.00173482 per 1,000 people)
Murders (per capita)
United States: #24 (0.042802 per 1,000 people)
New Zealand: #52 (0.0111524 per 1,000 people)
And as for the quote "guns aren’t causing the murder, they simply happen to be the tools murderers use in affluent societies where technological advantages and free markets exist" - well, New Zealand and the US are a similar level for technology access and free markets, so I don't see this applying here.
Yes, there's the usual stuff in our local media about rising crime etc., but guess what: no-one here - even the local gun lobby - is advocating US-style pistol carry laws. I suspect that's because that particular "cure" is ranked worse than the disease.
The only thing I agree with in your recent posts is the quote about getting rid of the social conditions that cause crime. But again, it seems that US society is strangely disinterested in that approach, preferring the mantra of "Capitalism, free markets and self-reliance uber alles" along with punishing the poor for being poor over anything approaching the assistance given by other Western developed democracies to their people.
Mayfurr
Mostly Harmless
Torrijos-sama
The Artist Formerly Known as Jesusfish
But Russia never follows the rules, and neither does Africa, or china...
So what would happen then?
Tudd
Member
SnowFox17
Aussie Furs FTW
In Aus we have a show called Good News Week, which basically pokes fun at the News of that week.
One Episode was about how the teachers of Texas are allowed to now carry handguns in class to protect the children, or themselves. One of the comedians said this:
"We are going to learn subtraction today, if i shoot a studnet with this, how many do we have left?"
One Episode was about how the teachers of Texas are allowed to now carry handguns in class to protect the children, or themselves. One of the comedians said this:
"We are going to learn subtraction today, if i shoot a studnet with this, how many do we have left?"
http://www.nationmaster.com/graph/cri_mur_wit_fir_percap-crime-murders-firearms-per-capita
Newf, click on the link again and re-read the header... it's in very large print, so you shouldn't be able to miss it.
Yes, those countries may be getting their arms ILLEGALLY from the US, but that is not the point. They have higher levels of gun-related murders due to the nature of the people there, not to the ILLEGAL import of weapons. THAT is a separate issue, not under discussion here.
Further, you again seem to not be paying attention: Gang violence in America (and elsewhere) is very commonly race-related... Blacks killing blacks, Latinos killing Latinos, Asians killing Asians... all of them, killing each other, due to bigotry and inter-racial hatred. Amongst other factors.
http://www.wcc-coe.org/wcc/what/jpc/echoes/echoes-17-03.html
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mass_racial_violence_in_the_United_States
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/asia-pacific/4519818.stm
If you want to learn more about the subject, Newf, plug the words "racial violence" into your browser, like I did...
Mayfurr... though I don't agree with your bullshit assessment, thank you for doing your homework, and thank you for your reasoned, non-insulting commentary.
The only reason I want to separate out criminal-on-criminal killing is due to the nature of gun control proponents... you know, their claim that gun control will prevent innocent deaths, the death of innocents. If we want to compare statistics, then, based on that claim, then we must ONLY use the statistics of criminals killing innocents. Furthermore, statistically speaking, some countries have more gang-related violence than others... look at South Africa, if you want an example (not necessarily the best). Myself, I'm curious as to how much gang violence affects the figures, and if it is significant or not.
So, when it comes to New Zealand, I would have to ask how much gang-related violence your coutry has, compared to the US and other coutries with high (higher) levels of gun-related violence (murder). I would expect NZ's gang-violence levels to be lower per capita than the US's... but I don't really know. The whole issue is certainly complex, and fraught with controversy.
And thank you very much for your last paragraph, Mayfurr... it's the whole crux of the matter. Crime cannot be stopped by banning the tools of crime, it can only be stopped (really, lessened, though we can always hope) by dealing with the human side of the equation.
The same as we started with, only one student is now dead and the teacher is now in prison for murder...
Hey, nobody's perfect... mistakes and misinformation is nothing new or unusual, when it comes to the media and to the dissemination of information. Especially over the web...
Mayfurr
Mostly Harmless
"Now for advanced mathematics.
If it takes two students 45 minutes to kill 7 people while firing 45 rounds per minute, how long does it take for one student to kill double the number of people using the same gun, assuming a 25 round magazine and an average of five seconds to reload?
For extra marks, calculate the non-parole period of the sentence per bullet expended, for each scenario.
Remember, show your working..."
Sinister South Paw
Eggs and bacon
When are people going to get the fact that violence and fear only inbreeds and comes back stronger? Gun for gun and the world shoots itself. And eye for an eye, a tooth for a tooth and the world is full of blind gumming mother fuckers.
This header, Newf:
Also, your isults are unnecessary, and very immature. Not to mention possessing no basis in reality... if you want to deny the existance of racially motivated violence, fine. Plug your ears, close you eyes and shout "LA LA LA!" all you want. It won't change the facts.
When are people going to get the fact that people are people and people are violent? Well, actually, only some people are violent, while others are not. Those who are violent will be violent whether or not guns are available, while those who are not will not be affected by the ownership of an inanimate tool.
Let me put it to you this way... my guns are less "violent" than the fork I eat my meals with.
This is funny. Successful troll is successful.
Says the troll...?
ceacar99
behold my boomstick!
yknow guns really dont belong in school. MAYBE teacher(thats a maybe) but students just simply aren't in the right position to safely and responsibly carry a weapon like that. think about all the hazing, the drinking and the moronic bullshit that goes on in college? then think of adding a whole lot of weapons to that....