Your Opinion On Closed Species Culture

[ShinyFloof]

So there's this thing that is taking DA by storm ( even some on FA too) called closed species. What's the problem with these you may ask? You can't make one for yourself without paying for some slot. Some are decent, like 10 dollars ( paying to draw yourself something is still BS though) while popular ones like Jolleraptors and Sushi Dogs are like literally 400 dollars per slot.

Now my issue with this is why isn't someone allowed to make their own character of your species for PERSONAL use? If no money is being made from it, what's the problem? Closed species seem like a big f you to anybody who isn't in a financially good situation. People don't realize that 10 dollars IS a lot to some people, and no not everybody is in the same boat.

"Oh you like my species and want one but can't pay me for an MYO? Too bad! All you can do is look at this detailed ref sheet of my species and read the lore!"

That has to be one of the worst feelings possible for anyone who likes making their own character for any reason.

Like I said with the Pokemon example. Nobody is stopping you from making your own Sylveon character. They will not put your name on a public "thief"/blacklist should you make your own and no money is being made from it.

Really who's stopping you from drawing a species? UNLESS they trademarked the name officially (not this "CS names are automatically trademarked!" BS) you can literally make as many of that species you want. All they can do is hate you. They'll get over it.

I did make my own of a generic as f••• animal hybrid and got hate for it once. There's this one I'm gonna make one of but call it a different name to avoid drama and post to a different site.

I say if there's anything you want to draw, do it. You can literally think up anything and pay any number of commission artists to draw it for you. You are only limited by your imagination. Why should you have to pay to draw what you want?

 

[Yakamaru]

The very notion of a "closed species" is moronic. I find the very idea idiotic.

You can't own an IDEA, the same way you can't own a fictional species. Believing you can profit off of a "closed species" makes me want to call a professional and have him/her check your head for narcissism.

 

[ShinyFloof]

The very notion of a "closed species" is moronic. I find the very idea idiotic.

You can't own an IDEA, the same way you can't own a fictional species. Believing you can profit off of a "closed species" makes me want to call a professional and have him/her check your head for narcissism.

I agree, like your literally telling someone they can't draw something for themselves for their own personal use? How greedy do people have to try and copyright and price tag everyone else's creative expression? And people saying off brands are disrespectful to CS artists. OK that's your opinion and your entitled to it but I don't see how that's hurting anyone. There's off brands of everything.

 

[Dongding]

It's legally unjustified and the concept itself is oppressive. I feel like drawing all their crap out of spite and messing up their lore but it would be a petty waste of my time.

 

[Yakamaru]

I agree, like your literally telling someone they can't draw something for themselves for their own personal use? How greedy do people have to try and copyright and price tag everyone else's creative expression? And people saying off brands are disrespectful to CS artists. OK that's your opinion and your entitled to it but I don't see how that's hurting anyone. There's off brands of everything.

Unless they actually buy a PATENT for it from the patent office(kek, good luck with buying the sole rights to an IDEA), I will draw and/or commission whatever the fuck I want.

That said: Some of the species is a little cute, but that's it.

It's legally unjustified and the concept itself is oppressive. I feel like drawing all their crap out of spite and messing up their lore but it would be a petty waste of my time.

Exactly, mate. It's tempted to commission someone to draw a closed species just to fuck with their notion and their idea of "owning" an idea. But meh, not worth it.

 

[Pipistrele]

In a way, I'm open to a concept of closed species (no pun intended). If, say, you're going to create a meta-setting with particular species, with each character from said species having particular alignment and place in your story, it's comfortable to create some form to register said characters and control them in space of your setting, which would make for a clear and understandable setting. Species like sergals or nevreans would potentially benefit from it, considering they're highly specialized, yet people who make sergal/nevrean OCs usually screw MICKs initial continuity up by treating it like crap (making additional "adjustments" to make chars more sexy, change their setting-established behavior, etc). In case of, say, Dutch Angel Dragons (not my favorite species, but just a good example), it creates a good separation - people who want to be a part of the setting register the chars, people who just want a cool-looking fluffy dragon guy don't, and everybody's happy. It's a perfect compromise of letting the species be clean and follow creator's plan without restricting anybody's creativity.

When it comes to "paid" closed species, it's not really as bad too, as long as design of said species is well-developed and too specific to be blindly replicated by someone else. For example, Russian artist Alisenokmouse created an interesting species of bat-like birds that live in fantasy world, have specific behavior, sleeping pattern, role (delivering snail mail around particular proximity), strengths and weaknesses, etc. It's an example of good closed species - well-developed, original design that's defined too clearly to restrict any one from drawing anything similar-yet-not-the-same-thing. It's fair, really - you clearly have to try out of your way to create a "bat-like-inch-sized-crow-that-sends-mails-and-lives-through-magical-power" and pass that as coincidence, and nobody's restricting you from creating "bat-like-inch-sized-crows-that-DON'T-send-mails-and-live-physically" anyway.

The real offenders (the ones everybody's complaining about) are lazy designs that are made to "hoard" vague ideas and scam the money out of people, with abysmal degrees of success. All the sushidogs, firehuskies, icefoxes, and all that stuff. The way people try to faux-"copyright" widely used concepts is just amusing.

TL;DR: Setting a registration process to clean out your species is healthy if you're making a long-term story. Creating "closed" characters to sell them is fine as long as you actually develop an unique and irreplicable design that won't restrict people from making similar chars unrelated to your species. "Creating" and selling vague ideas is, well, just kill yourself in fire or something, lol.

 

[Dongding]

Good you mentioned some positives about it but the fundamentals are flawed from the start.

It's nice to have nice things kept the nice way you like it, but unless it's against the law, there's really nothing somebody can do to control a concept and expect to get any sort of result. (Especially online.) Nice has nothing to do with it. To me it's a fairly black and white discussion where it's tough to draw a grey line.

The unjustified profit from something that technically doesn't belong to someone is obviously the main problem. I'd state which info should be considered cannon to the lore of my CS if I was trying to reign in any sort of control over my idea. That's really all you can reasonably do without being a total asshat.

 

[Pipistrele]

It's nice to have nice things kept the nice way you like it, but unless it's against the law, there's really nothing somebody can do to control a concept and expect to get any sort of result. (Especially online.)

The unjustified profit from something that technically doesn't belong to someone is obviously the main problem. I'd state which info should be considered cannon to the lore of my CS if I was trying to reign in any sort of control over my idea. That's really all you can reasonably do without being a total asshat.

Well, they kinda can, and in a rather positive way. You see, clever "closed species" creators don't just, like, "Here's my crapdog, give me money and screw off" - they create particular lore and community around their species that's fun to participate in. You can use your char to roleplay with other buyers, on creator's own ground, you can get your char used by creator in story, you can even unwillingly get occasional gifts (I still get my batto thingie drawn by said artist from time to time), etc. Theoretically, you can just make your own without permission, but you'll miss on all the benefits of aforementioned community and acknowledgement from original creator, and the char you made for free will never be a true part of the setting. In other words, you pay for being a part of your favorite artist's lore and participating in said lore, not just for having a cool poopdog or something.

And again, while it's hard (though possible) to copyright the closed species, I just think creators who come up with genuinely interesting and elaborate designs should get rewarded, and I'm not against buying a char from them if they did a good work. Also, it's possible to unknowingly create similar designs, but in general, if artist is skilled and creative enough, there's no way anybody will come up with exacty the same thing - it's like if two people create same song with same notes and same lyrics, all without knowing about each other (i.e. practically impossible). That's why I separate them from not-so-good examples of closed species, where people just combine some random stuff and expect to get money by yelling at people for "stealing" their stuff. In their case, it's like trying to copyright a chord sequence.

 

[WolfNightV4X1]

You got a point pip, I hate the idea of closed species with a passion. However the concept you mentioned regarding the artist with a specialized, innately unique, and their own species is a good one. What posses me off more are the crybabies that make a generic hybrid and whine when others make something similar having no knowledge of the original thing. It happens a beck of a lot :/ Not to mention someone made a thread on the concept not too long ago


I STILL find closed species and generally adopts to be silly anyways. If I wanted THAT character, I'd find out what I like about it's design, aesthetics, species...and use only the traits I like and borrow it on my own creation while still creating something new. Call it stealing if you want to whine about it, but people don't own horns or wings or whatever. They can't sue me over that. I'm not making any money over that craps anyways

 

[WolfNightV4X1]

While on the subject, I find most adoptables an annoying trend. "I slapped colors on a lineart and made a random design, give me money!"

Why do people pay for flat characters with no established personality? Just an image on a screen?

Some people might establish an incredibly basic likes/dislikes or bio to give some semblance of a personality but it's really just an unused, useless image.


And these things fly all over DA and FA with artists complaining "Please buy, it's my only source of income!"

Maybe you should get a new source of income, just saying

 

[Dongding]

Well fleshed out fantasy worlds that are officially copyrighted and have ascended past the point of being simply a doodle or idea only ever got that way by being given a chance.

I get what you're saying. I'm sure you get what I'm saying as well. I've always considered myself an idealist though. I get great satisfaction from things working out precisely the way they're supposed to. (Might be mild OCD or something.) Fortunately for everyone I interact with, that generally means I'll be reasonable and considerate and try to stick to the facts and intelligently back up my opinion. Unfortunately it generally makes it tough for me to take a stance on certain grey areas. Right now I only see right and "too bad". (not necessarily wrong.)

 

[Pipistrele]

I STILL find closed species and generally adopts to be silly anyways. If I wanted THAT character, I'd find out what I like about it's design, aesthetics, species...and use only the traits I like and borrow it on my own creation while still creating something new. Call it stealing if you want to whine about it, but people don't own horns or wings or whatever. They can't sue me over that. I'm not making any money over that craps anyways

I'll say you that at least among the closed species artists I know, they generally see "creating by inspiration" as a good thing - you spread around what they consider a good taste in character design, and nothing is better for craft-loving artist than getting his tastes shared by someone. Though doing that out of spite is a bit silly too - I mean, if you really like artist a lot, what makes it wrong to buy a character or two from him/her? You'll show some support the original creator, and in return, you'll get a personally-crafted design from a very talented person that you could use anywhere, anytime, and with endorsement of said original creator. It's a win-win situation - fan helps the artist, and artist helps the fan.

 

[Pipistrele]

Well fleshed out fantasy worlds that are officially copyrighted and have ascended past the point of being simply a doodle or idea only ever got that way by being given a chance.

I get what you're saying. I'm sure you get what I'm saying as well. I've always considered myself an idealist though. I get great satisfaction from things working out precisely the way they're supposed to. (Might be mild OCD or something.) Fortunately for everyone I interact with, that generally means I'll be reasonable and considerate and try to stick to the facts and intelligently back up my opinion. Unfortunately it generally makes it tough for me to take a stance on certain grey areas. Right now I only see right and "too bad". (not necessarily wrong.)

Well, we can always agree to disagree c:

 

[Dongding]

Well, we can always agree to disagree c:

Some people don't know that lol.

EDIT: To weigh in on adoptables, I would never buy one, but a person has made something, put it on display to be sold, and a customer wants the product/service enough to either buy it or not. I think they're dumb too but they're in no way any different than any sort of other type of commision; Just far less personal. It's like going to a store that sells pants instead of the tailor.

 

[Sergei Sóhomo]

I find it stupid that people would pay anything for it

But I have respect for people who do it and make money off of it

 

[Taterbunny]

Closed species are genius for people who have a fan base and want easy cash. Do I like the concept? No, not at all.
There is nothing stopping someone from creating a similar character (other than white knights who will come in droves to bully). After all, anything we create is taken in pieces from other things. Think like a blend of animal parts. I think the idea that your personal mix of animal parts is exclusive behind a paywall is ridiculous.
Though if you have your own mosh of animals and it's not an "officially open species" people will assume it's some closed species, which is a bit annoying. I've had people ask me f I plan to open my sona's species, and I'm just here like... it's not a closed thing, it's basically a bunny-gecko-thing. Make one, go nuts, give it wings, horns, whatever you want. But then people are understandably afraid people will think they copied someone's sona unless they're an "open species". The whole thing's a headache, and people should be allowed to draw whatever creatures they want regardless if someone else has a similar one. Just make the design itself unique and go for it.

 

[Pipistrele]

Some people don't know that lol.

EDIT: To weigh in on adoptables, I would never buy one, but a person has made something, put it on display to be sold, and a customer wants the product/service enough to either buy it or not. I think they're dumb too but they're in no way any different than any sort of other type of commision; Just far less personal. It's like going to a store that sells pants instead of the tailor.

Again, speaking on "far less personal", it highly depends on the artist. Some just resell colored dogs, and I just avoid them. Others actually come up with smart, themed designs and write elaborate, cohesive backstories to back their characters up, often putting the same amount of love they do when making their own chars (common reason for selling them in the first place is "I don't have enough time to use him/her, so I might as well give the design away in good hands"). Surely, it's not very personal for a customer, but definitely a legitimate chunk of love from creator.

In general, after reading the thread, I think both closed species and adoptables are widely misunderstood as "uncreative scams", and it shows here. But at least I had the chance to explain the process behind both concepts in a more realistic manner, so somebody will read this and think about it for a minute or two .u.

 

[Dongding]

Again, speaking on "far less personal"

I meant specifically the artists pooping out adoptables with no specific person in mind. The transaction itself is much less personal than if a customer were to commission a piece with their own personal tastes in mind from an artist, obviously. You mentioned that already though. :3

 

[ShinyFloof]

You got a point pip, I hate the idea of closed species with a passion. However the concept you mentioned regarding the artist with a specialized, innately unique, and their own species is a good one. What posses me off more are the crybabies that make a generic hybrid and whine when others make something similar having no knowledge of the original thing. It happens a beck of a lot :/ Not to mention someone made a thread on the concept not too long ago


I STILL find closed species and generally adopts to be silly anyways. If I wanted THAT character, I'd find out what I like about it's design, aesthetics, species...and use only the traits I like and borrow it on my own creation while still creating something new. Call it stealing if you want to whine about it, but people don't own horns or wings or whatever. They can't sue me over that. I'm not making any money over that craps anyways

I believe I made the thread about hybrid closed species and that incident is what fueled my hatred for closed species. I can and will draw whatever I want, as a few others on this thread have stated. Unless you somehow got a patent on an idea, I'll continue doing as I please.

 

[Filter]

The idea of closed species seems uncreative to me, and maybe symptomatic of another problem. Why copy others so closely that they have to "close" anything? I mean, I get that some people like making fan art, but that's what it is. Fan art. Like drawing pictures of Pokemon rather than your own OCs.

 

[Dongding]

Except if Nintendo (I think? Do they own Pokémon?) wanted to sue you for misusing the property that they actually do own, they could. That to me is the most important difference. I don't even mean it in a sense of right or wrong because it legally falls on one side or another, either. I don't think anything that you can get away with legally is necessarily right. There's plenty of examples of people getting away with atrocious things because of loopholes in the law so laws to me don't necessarily mean a thing. Laws are arbitrary and can be changed at anytime while right and wrong is always the same. In this case though, I feel justice does happen to be in touch with the laws on copyrighting. The entire purpose of a copyright is specifically to protect an idea, and if you don't do that, then you have no reason to complain that your idea is being taken advantage of.

 

[ShinyFloof]

The idea of closed species seems uncreative to me, and maybe symptomatic of another problem. Why copy others so closely that they have to "close" anything? I mean, I get that some people like making fan art, but that's what it is. Fan art. Like drawing pictures of Pokemon rather than your own OCs.

Exactly. I do wanna make a feral dessert wolf with a bell collar but the only thing stopping me is idk if I'd actually use the OC, though I have a name for it and everything.

 

[Xaroin]

In a way, I'm open to a concept of closed species (no pun intended). If, say, you're going to create a meta-setting with particular species, with each character from said species having particular alignment and place in your story, it's comfortable to create some form to register said characters and control them in space of your setting, which would make for a clear and understandable setting. Species like sergals or nevreans would potentially benefit from it, considering they're highly specialized, yet people who make sergal/nevrean OCs usually screw MICKs initial continuity up by treating it like crap (making additional "adjustments" to make chars more sexy, change their setting-established behavior, etc). In case of, say, Dutch Angel Dragons (not my favorite species, but just a good example), it creates a good separation - people who want to be a part of the setting register the chars, people who just want a cool-looking fluffy dragon guy don't, and everybody's happy. It's a perfect compromise of letting the species be clean and follow creator's plan without restricting anybody's creativity.

When it comes to "paid" closed species, it's not really as bad too, as long as design of said species is well-developed and too specific to be blindly replicated by someone else. For example, Russian artist Alisenokmouse created an interesting species of bat-like birds that live in fantasy world, have specific behavior, sleeping pattern, role (delivering snail mail around particular proximity), strengths and weaknesses, etc. It's an example of good closed species - well-developed, original design that's defined too clearly to restrict any one from drawing anything similar-yet-not-the-same-thing. It's fair, really - you clearly have to try out of your way to create a "bat-like-inch-sized-crow-that-sends-mails-and-lives-through-magical-power" and pass that as coincidence, and nobody's restricting you from creating "bat-like-inch-sized-crows-that-DON'T-send-mails-and-live-physically" anyway.

The real offenders (the ones everybody's complaining about) are lazy designs that are made to "hoard" vague ideas and scam the money out of people, with abysmal degrees of success. All the sushidogs, firehuskies, icefoxes, and all that stuff. The way people try to faux-"copyright" widely used concepts is just amusing.

TL;DR: Setting a registration process to clean out your species is healthy if you're making a long-term story. Creating "closed" characters to sell them is fine as long as you actually develop an unique and irreplicable design that won't restrict people from making similar chars unrelated to your species. "Creating" and selling vague ideas is, well, just kill yourself in fire or something, lol.

*trade marks "React"*

 

[ShinyFloof]

*trade marks "React"*

Reminds me of when Candy Crush tried to trademark the word "candy". They never did because they realized how asinine it would be to trademark such a common word. Pipistriel has a good point though, closed species with original anatomy don't bug me as much as the food dog stuff, but the idea of "closing" something is just eh. Thats just my opinion though.

My biggest problem is that well a lot of the species are cute but generic and the creators say "oh you can't draw this without paying for it because yadda yadda yadda". When in reality you can just take the aspects you like about it and make your own character with those traits, but that's what makes people whine and say you're "stealing"

 

[ChapterAquila92]

Reminds me of when Candy Crush tried to trademark the word "candy". They never did because they realized how asinine it would be to trademark such a common word.

Similarly, Games Workshop tried to trademark the term "Space Marine". Fortunately they came to their senses after a court battle, and instead opted to go with as much pseudo-Latin naming conventions as they could for their Space Marine ("Adeptus Astartes"), Imperial Guard ("Astra Militarum") and Stormtrooper ("Militarum Tempestus") army lines. They also applied that wisdom to their WFB setting following their Age of Sigmar reboot (especially and most extreme with their Lizardmen line, which got renamed "Seraphon" - still the Aztec dinosaurs we knew and loved, now with more magical ancient astronaut mixed in.)